Queen's Homecoming - just in case you forgot

[keoadmin]

October Blog by Agent99

Queen's Homecoming - just in case you forgot

Where is the local media? With TV, radio, and rags calling themselves newspapers, where was the coverage of the homecoming events? I am sorry that the media missed hundreds mixing it up with the local police (KPD) until after the event.

Maybe they are silenced like the public became after the recent Kingston City Council meeting when students showed up to make their pitch on what went wrong and who's to blame..

Maybe the media is afraid of Queen's. I know that if just a few hundred of the common people on social assistance had a party--- say in Rideau Heights---with a few pops the KPD would be cracking skulls. After all, we can't have people who are living below the poverty line partying on government money. Better that that government money be spent on programs that help our more affluent citizens cope with the stresses and costs of higher education!

I think if the KPD had shown up with a few camcorders and shot the event there would be an end to the arguments of who was at fault. It could be shown on CITY TV in Toronto so their parents could see their little darlings puking on the sidewalk.

The students who showed up for council expressed how they are citizens of Kingston. Bull@#$%! If you ask any one of them where they are from they will probably say Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Vancouver----even if they have been living on Johnson Street for the past 4 years. If the same student attended school in Europe, they would say things like I have lived the past few years in a quaint little town on the outskirts of Paris. But they would toss their KD before they will admit they are living in Kingston.

They are under age, under weight in the common sense department, (they still stand beside puddles when I drive by, after 13+ years of education), they want more money from government, (that is, money which unknown to the average student comes from taxpayers) and yet they feel oppressed because they can't understand why I don't want their drunken ass on my front lawn.

I told you so, last year! But this year we have it on tape, this has not been any worse then last year or the year before. Ah. but their mom's and dad's now have seen the little darlings on tape at their finest. This year Queen's has to answer the media, in the past the community groups did not have the reach CJOH has. One of the little darlings wrote in the Kingston This Week, Kingston would be nothing without Queens. I think Queens would be a better place with a few less of these little angels.

LVEC where?

I would be happy to write about the LVEC but I attended the last meeting and I think I need a little more time to clean out the BS from my ears.

What I think took place on the final night of the Anglin Bay site was the old bait and switch. You have an idea of what you want but you know you won't have enough votes to carry the day. So what you do is propose a site that will get the most no's, tell them maybe they were right, then show them plan "B" which was plan "A" the whole time.

Confused? That was the whole idea!

[billygoat]

October Blog by Agent99

Queen's Homecoming - just in case you forgot


Maybe the media is afraid of Queen's. I know that if just a few hundred of the common people on social assistance had a party--- say in Rideau Heights---with a few pops the KPD would be cracking skulls. After all, we can't have people who are living below the poverty line partying on government money. Better that that government money be spent on programs that help our more affluent citizens cope with the stresses and costs of higher education!



If that's how it was 2 years ago, then how things have changed. This year not only did Homecoming make national news, but it was drawn out in our local media for weeks.

This year also saw residents of Rideau Heights asking the Police Services Board for an INCREASE in police presence. And while they were told that there aren't enough officers to supply any increased presence, Chief Closs has ordered an extra two officers in the Queen's area each and every shift. Hmmm...maybe they figure that Queen's students are somewhat more likely to pay their jaywalking fines than the kids from the Heights.

[macphail]

So...have any Queen's students been disciplined by the University over homecoming? :rolleyes:

Tough talk and no action? That would seem apparent.

Cheers, Derek

[billygoat]

I was told recently by a Queen's security officer that the so-called "internal discipline" imposed by the AMA has to date merely consisted of letters of apology from students to Queen's security. No academic sanctions, no suspensions, no fines...not even a direct apology in person. And that's just from the AMA...from the University administration, apparently nothing at all.

All of this after Queen's security were told that reported incidents involving students would be dealt with effectively.

[Lydia]

THE question here is this: Since Queens won't do anything WILL THE COUNCIL DO something to force the POLICE CHIEF into doing the job of ENFORCING THE LAWS that are all ready on the books.

It looks like these jerks won???? AGAIN??? because some highly educated administraters at Queens are NO BETTER THAN THOSE WHO DID THE DAMAGE because they are willing not to do something about it.

[queenskingston]

Would you expect your employer to discipline you if you committed an offense? Why should Queen's Students be subject to any higher order of standards?

[macphail]

Would you expect your employer to discipline you if you committed an offense? Why should Queen's Students be subject to any higher order of standards?

Actually, some emplyers do just that (a "morality clause" is what I believe they are referred to as).

Cheers, Derek

[Lydia]

Queenskingston,

It is called being FIRED. Time for the police to do their job. What the students did isn't any different than a RIOT. Homeowners or even LANDLORDS should not have to put up with that crap. Those students should be put in JAIL. If you decided to burn someone chesterfield on your street do you think you would be scolded and not put in JAIL???

Just because these *****s have MONEY FROM THEIR PARENTS and are spoiled rotten doesn't impress me. A firebird is a firebird regardless of his/her wealth.

A theft is a theft, the ones with money usually are Moffias the others are small minded lowly thefts. And if Queens university won't discipline by FIRING THEM oops I mean expelling them than Queens isn't any better than those *****s.

[queenskingston]

Just as you said "some" do, but not all. There is no set standard in place for Kingston Citizens so the argument is why should there be for Queen's Students?

In response to Lydia, you have typcasted all Queen's Students to be rich and snobby which is the case for about half the students there, but not all, so please take that into consideration. Also take into consideration that the majority of infractions on Homecoming night were from students from other universities as well as Kingston Residents themselves that attended the party.

I am not saying you are wrong for your anger, but I think there are better ways to address the situation besides calling Queens Students and Administration derogatory names.

Would you not agree that when proper dialogue takes place, we can reach a solution and anything other than that is only making things worse?

[queenskingston]

As far as burning of chesterfields etc, absolutely, they should be punished. However, what you may not realize is that Dr. Hitchcock does not walk around the Ghetto and look for violations of law. The Police must arrest and follow through with reporting this to the University. The Ghetto is not University property, it is Kingston property and should be policed by.....the police.


Just to add a little to your thinking of Queens Students all being spoiled brats with money from their parents. Do you enjoy it when Students typecast all Kingston Residents as "dirty townies"? Of course you don't because you know that there are great people in Kingston and guess what, there is at Queens too.

[queenskingston]

Just another addition, sorry, things keep coming to me!

If I do come off as attacking you in anyway, please let me know and I will refrain from doing so. I am actively trying to engage in constructive discussion on this issue and bridging the gap between Queen's Students and the Residents of Kingston. Thank you.

[Lydia]

No offense taken Queenkingston, I realize that you are not AGAINST THE STUDENTS (rich or poor) at Queens. Personally I will and have supported Queens students and found that the ones I have met are the Cream of the Crop type people. I also believe that 95% of the students at Queens are wonderful future leaders.

It is the 5% that I call rich jerks. They must be because they don't value anything by their actions. They are spoiled. They don't even value them selves because what they did isn't just against Kingston residents it truly is against themselves. They know what they did is wrong and now whether they are punished or not they will have to HIDE THEIR SELFWORTH.

Oh people may think they are great but those 5% know the truth and will have to live with it. What goes around comes around.

Queenkingston, I am not sure which makes me more angry. The police not policing the way they should have done or the students who did it.

Queens is a world class university, in my book. It is a complete shame that they do not expell people who do NOT live up to that reputation.

Again, I apologize to the 95% who are great. I truly respect you all. The other 5% who know they did wrong, I say GROW UP.

Queenskingston, Thank you for showing the other kind of student. It is a delight to see people support the 95%.

My Cousin's husband actually was the Chef Of Police in Montreal. He would never have tolerated not arresting those trouble makers. My friends are police officers in Brampton, They would never have tolerated not arresting those students either.

[Lydia]

“We have people coming into Kingston from out of town who cause problems and then go back to where they live. So what we do is and we’ve done this for years we’ll try to get you banned from Kingston to try and prevent you from doing the same thing again,” said Kingston Police spokesman Const. Neil Finn.


I just read in the Kingston whig that those 3 students have been banned from this city.

FINALLY, the correct action taken by the Kingston Police. Thank youThankyou Thank you Const. Neil Finn.

For those who think that a criminal was never banned from a community, this is not soo. People have been banned from entering into a community because of their actions. It is a very old law and practice that police used many times especially in the maritimes.

I just thought I would share this with you queenkingston. It is good to see that these students were NOT FROM Kingston. It just goes to show you that those students didn't value our community and thought they could get away with it.

I will support our Police when they do the correct type of policing.

[queenskingston]

Yes they have done something, unfortunately, you may have only gotten a little piece of the full article on that issue. Read the full article on that issue and you may come up with a different opinion.

[billygoat]

There is no set standard in place for Kingston Citizens so the argument is why should there be for Queen's Students?



What's being referred to is the Queen's student code of conduct.

[queenskingston]

Yes, that is called the Student Code of Conduct. The point I was making however, is that students must obey the law AND the Student Code of Conduct. Kingston Residents obey the law, but there is nothing above that they have to conform to.

[Lydia]

Actually, Queenkingston, there really is something that the citizens have to obey other than the law.

Althought you have the Student Code of Conduct and the law. Citizen have the Code of Community Living and the Law.

If a citizen did that damage, the neighbours would never want to associate with them. If an adult did the burning or over turning the cars on the streets where they live, that adult would also be considered mentally insane. Not only would have have to deal with the law, that person would also have to see a mental spe******t because the courts would have that person examined for mental problems.

Of course that is exactly what Drinking booze and Drugs do to your brain. It destroys your ability to think correctly. No body with a sound mind would even consider doing that damage.

[billygoat]

Yes, that is called the Student Code of Conduct. The point I was making however, is that students must obey the law AND the Student Code of Conduct. Kingston Residents obey the law, but there is nothing above that they have to conform to.

OK, but so what?

In any case, the code of conduct is clearly useless, at least in terms of stopping *****ic and destructive behaviour by students. So really, it's as if it didn't exist. In reality, the only thing that's left to hold them in check is law enforcement...same as with your 'regular' Kingston residents. Only problem is that the Queen's students commit their headline grabbing antics in numbers larger than those provided by the police.

The only thing that will stop the Homecoming fiasco is a police presence great enough to handle the thousands of drunken jackasses, irregardless of who they are or where they come from. That wouldn't necessarily be necessary if Queen's was serious about expelling students who engage in such behaviour, and cancelled homecoming for one year. But we all know that neither of those two options are going to happen. Of course, it's a lot easier for Queen's administration to leave everything up to the police.

[queenskingston]

Like I have said before to other people, no Queen's Students can be expelled for simply attending a homecoming party. Those who were drunk in public and arrested by police were ticketed and were fined by the AMS Society of Queen's. Not one Queen's Student was arrested for the tipping or burning of the car. Punishments do have to fit the crime and expulsion for a minor offense cannot be done.

As for cancelling Homecoming, go ahead, cancel it. The Aberdeen party will occur regardless because it just happens to occur during homecoming but is not a Queen's sanctioned event. The students will simply pick a weekend for the party to occur and it will happen, regardless of homecoming's existence.

The Code of Conduct IS enforced, however, it is sad that the local news has reported how Queen's students were flipping cars etc even though not one student of Queen's was charged. And if they were, Im sure that expulsion would occur.

Any of this making sense?

[queenskingston]

By the way, I am not trying to come as attacking you for feeling the way you do. I think thats what most Kingston residents think because of the way they are provided information from the news.

Just so you know, Im on both sides here. I am both a Kingston resident and Queen's student so Im not trying to be biased.

[Lydia]

I agree with Queenkingston, that party will happen regardless of homecoming or no homecoming events.

I believe we are saying the same thing only in different ways. The event was NO A QUEENS EVENT. It was a few students screwing things up for Kingston Queen students.

So in a way this was done to annoy and upset the Kingston Police. Having said that, Queens should enforces the Code of Conduct on their students. Queens should EXPELL the students that don't live up to that code.

[queenskingston]

Good points.

However, if someone attends a homecoming party, is a suitable punishment expulsion?

Trust me, any student that commits assualt or any type of sexual misconduct would be expelled.

Minor offenses are punished with minor punishments, such as fines and apology letters.

No Queen's student was charged with anything more that public intoxication on the Aberdeen Street Party.

[billygoat]

In the past year, Kingston Police informed Queen's Security of most arrests of Queen's students - whether for Liquor Licence offences or criminal charges (not just related to Homecoming). Queen's security then passed the info on to the AMS. As well, Queen's security reported incidents involving there own interactions with students. From what I've been told by Queen's security, and has been reported, the AMS never did anything except to have some students write letters of apology (though never to the police). This is why, I presume, that some faculty are now proposing that the authority to enforce the code of conduct be taken away from the AMS and handed over to the administration. (Assuming my recollection of recent news stories is correct.) I've never heard of fines or tickets, and would love to hear more details about that. In any case, tickets don't seem to be enough.

Furthermore, those Queen's students that host parties which lead directly to acts of mischief and other offences should be dealt with in some way. For example, the residents of "The Mansion" (Johnson at Aberdeen) hosted the big party April 29th which led directly to street fires, bottles thrown at police cars, and furniture set on fire on the street; as well as the theft of a boat and placing it in the middle of the street. While the police can't charge the residents of that house unless they were seen directly committing those offences, the University should apply the code of conduct and start holding these clowns responsible. Saying "Hey, I'm just throwing the party, I'm not the one that threw any bottles" just doesn't cut it.

As for Homecoming & the Aberdeen St. party, some students may indeed hold their own parties if Homecoming is cancelled. However, as has been mentioned most especially by apologists for Queen's students, many of the participants in the Aberdeen street party are not from Queen's, nor even from Kingston. Without an official Homecoming weekend date, we certainly would not get the crowds that we've seen in the last three years.

In short, the University needs to do more to hold students responsible for their actions if they had anything to do with organising or encouraging situations that spiral out of control. Otherwise, they'll just keep thinking that they can do whatever they want. The worst of these people believe only in their own self gratification, and have no understanding of communal or social responsibilities. This is what needs to be addressed. The university is supposed to help these children turn into thinking adults. Ignoring the problem isn't doing them any favours, and is an abdication of the univerisity's responsibilities.

An escelating series of sanctions needs to be imposed, with expulsion being the ultimate punishment. Other more minor sanctions may be imposed for 1st time or minor offences, but they have to mean something.

It's no coincidence that RMC students, who do have their parties and drinking extravaganzas in town from time to time, do not engage in the same behaviour as Queen's students; nor do they exhibit the same antagonistic and self-centered attitude if caught. They know that they face serious consequences if they cross the line.

[queenskingston]

I agree with almost everything you said.

Fines are levied against students who commit offenses such as public intoxication etc, and they must be paid or a student will not be able to preregister or graduate etc. There is also community service given out to students who commit such offenses.

As far as the homecoming. I agree, without a formal date, the crowds would be less, but I still think would be quite high. Instead of 5000 people, you may get 3500-4000 people, I say this because even though many people are not from Queen's or Kingston, they know a Queen's student and will find out about the party nonetheless.

I agree with you that students that hold parties that lead to destructive behavior should be held responsible, and they are. However, Queen's Administration have other things to do that go around the Ghetto looking for violations, they rely on the police, students and members of the community to report these activities. That is why a couple years ago, the "campus snitch line", Im not sure what it was called, was created. This way you can directly reports such behavior.

What would you suggest would be a good punishment for something such as public intoxication or holding a party? Maybe it needs to be harsher however I'm not sure what exactly it could be.

I think its important to realize that many adults in the community really don't like Queen's students are will be very biased in their opinion about what occurs in the AMS or administration. The Queen's Security people who told you that all they have done has written letters is clearly lying because the security works with the AMS and all reports state the wide variety of punishments that are given out.

I completely agree that someone should be punished if they hosted a party that lead to destructive behavior, but what do you suggest above the fines and letters of apology?

[queenskingston]

The one thing I don't agree with is your comment about RMC.

RMC is a unique post secondary education that is not the same thing as Queens, McMaster, McGill etc.

They cannot be compared because those students are getting paid to attend that college and also a career directly out of the school. They are part of the military and are not comparable in terms of code of conduct to students are non-military universities.

[queenskingston]

Just one more thing, if you do want to know more accurate information about the Queen's system, please ask and I will get the correct information to you.

I am both a Queen's Student and Kingston Resident (for over 20 years) so I am actively trying to find a solution and not defend either side.

[Lydia]

Why wouldn't the people who have those parties be responsible for their guest's conduct IF (and I mean IF) those people aided in getting their guest drunk or on drugs?

Think about it. As a citizen we already are responsible if we allow our guests to drink and drive and that guest kills somone with that automobile. Restaurants in Kingston already have had their liquor licenses revolked and also suited because of it.

I guarantee you that those 5000 or 1 people who comes to your party would not be doing what they did had YOU (you i meaning the party giver) were responsible.

Should someone come to your home ALREADY drunk or out of their minds and you thought you would be responsible for them should they leave your home, I guaranttee you would not allow that guest to leave in the same condition they arrived.

Like the old saying goes "WE ARE OUR BROTHER'S KEEPER". Something our society choises not to abide by.

[billygoat]

The one thing I don't agree with is your comment about RMC.

RMC is a unique post secondary education that is not the same thing as Queens, McMaster, McGill etc.

They cannot be compared because those students are getting paid to attend that college and also a career directly out of the school. They are part of the military and are not comparable in terms of code of conduct to students are non-military universities.

The point is that RMC students know they face serious consequences if they engage in unacceptable behaviour. Regular university students also need to know that they too face serious, even if not the same, sort of consequences.

Which leads to appropriate sanctions. I think that academic sanctions need to be applied. I've heard the term bandied about by Queen's administrators...let's see it happen. Nothing hits home harder than the realization that you may not get your degree. If you help host a party that attracts unacceptable behaviour, then make the student repeat a year, if need be. I like the notion of fines as well, if they are SIGNIFICANT (because so many of these kids will just get daddy to pay) and must be paid in order to receive one's degree. Fines for hosting such a party should therefore cover the cost of city services that had to be utilized (police overtime, fire, city works department) as well as the cost of damage to private property. I'm talking $5000 to $10,000 at least. (Homecoming itself is of course much more expensive!) The fine could perhaps be spread amongst the occupants of the house that caused the problems.

[queenskingston]

Good suggestions, I believe the fines are pretty intense, based on the severity of the crime.

I know of one guy who simply stepped onto the street with an open beer and was fined 190 dollars! Let me tell you this, if you owe Queen's ANY money, they will not give you your degree, I'm talking debts as little as a few dollars.

[SLN]

Everyone who steps onto the street with open liquour gets the same fine.. it isn't 'special' for students. And as to the second point... sure, they withhold yoru degree if you owe THEM any money. Other fines are excluded, as is skipping out of town on your final utility bill payment, rent payment, etc.

[queenskingston]

SLN, you obviously have just jumped into this conversation without a clue of what is going on. The fine was NOT from the cops, but from the Queens AMS Society on top of what the cops fine was. So I think you should have enough sense to know that is what I meant.

I think I am done trying to create constructive dialogue on this issue. Most people are completely blaming Queen's Students for things that have not been proven or even said by them. Just remember that Queen's brings in over 1 billion dollars into Kingston's economy every year so I suggest that if you want to have your peace and quiet etc, you should move to Belleville or Brockville, which is equivalent to Kingston without Queen's.

Anyways, good luck everyone, because if you think things are actually going to change, luck will have to be on your side.

Goodbye.

PS Don't bother replying, I won't be logging into this site again, so I won't see it.

[SLN]

Holy crow.
Was what I said that offensive?
Sheesh. I'm sorry if it was, I didn't mean it to be. I don't even see how it COULD have been taken offense to. Maybe if I had have read all four pages of comments I'd understand.

[queenskingston]

Turns out that I did read it. Now that I read my post, I was on a little bit of a short fuse, but most of my posts are confronted negatively and I just am a little frustrated.

Sorry SLN, I just didn't see how Queen's should be responsible for students ducking out on police bills, utility bills etc. My main argument is to come to a realistic conclusion instead of pointing the finger back and forth.

[SLN]

:) I wasn't trying to be negative. I was just pointing out the obvious, really. My non-student friends were often fined for open liquour (back in the day, of course.)

now, here's the thing:

Non-students end up having to pay the price for bad students, who don't pay their final phone bills or utility bills or who ruin apartments or fail to pay their rents. If you want a couple of concrete examples, I can give them to you. Non-student renters, for example, have to pay exhorbitant "sign-up" deposits for phone and utilities. Is this right? I happen to own my home now, but before I did I had to pay $250 each to hydro and phone just for the privilege of having an account with them. I did ask them both why that was - and both told me the same answer - high transient student population who do not pay their final bills.

As to the police fines - I personally think it's quasi-criminal for people frm out of the province or country to live here, incur traffic and parking fines (or drinking or what have you) and then laughingly refuse to pay, knowing they are not permanent residents.

Queen's isn't responsible for that, I agree. But Queen's hold itself up as a bastion of "higher-learning" and higher everything. I ask you - why does it not benefit them to separate the wheat from the chaff? I could think of many solutions to the problem, most involving refusing to allow them back into the school or give them their diplomas. Other sanctions could also apply.

I agree with you, too, that the majority of the student population are hard-working, decent people. I was one. But if RMC can discipline their student effectively, why can't Queen's?

[queenskingston]

You make good points, however, the RMC thing.

RMC is not a comparable school to Queen's. If you paid me to go to school and also paid all tuition and board, I would give up many of my freedoms. They are also guaranteed jobs directly out of school.

Many people make great points about how students are bad etc, but not many effective and realistic solutions that could actually be implemented to create change.

[queenskingston]

Also, if you could give me concrete examples of students "laughingly" saying they would not pay their fines, I would like to hear about it. There is a difference between actually hearing something and the creation of these things from previous perceptions of Queen's Students.

[queenskingston]

One more thing, if the hydro people or whatever Utility company has all these student accounts, they should police the recovery of funds themselves or with the police. That is basic business practice, it seems like nowadays, Kingston residents wants Queen's to handle situations that are between the city and the students. Queen's administration have other jobs to do besides doing an excellent job with the students. There is a complete lack of information provided and Kingston residents are getting blatantly false information on which to base their opinions on.

Such as the Aberdeen street party, does anyone know that a head count from the Kingston Police actually revealed that approximately 2 out 3 people at the party were not associated with Queen's. Also, not one student was charged with any flipping or torching of a car, these are basic facts that are hidden away by the media and blown up to be something they are not. I encourage everyone to research these events and then come up with an opinion, because its really not fair to the students who work hard day in and day out and get nothing but verbal abuse in return.

[SLN]

At RMC, a person's studies aren't "paid for for them" as you suggest. Instead, students are under a contractual obligation to WORK for their education, rather than simply pay for it out of their pockets. Should they renege on their bargain, they do in fact have to pay the full cost of the education they have received, and I believe they repay their boarding costs, too.

When it comes to any 'freedoms' they may have given up, particularly in regards to the topic of this thread, I disagree that any of them are relevant. They do give up the freedom to dress the way they want to or go wherever they please in their first year, but no one has the 'freedom' to riot, commit arson, drink in public, skip out on bills, or abuse police officers.

What they have is discipline for their choices. I also know that they are far from perfect, and that they NEED that discipline, since they do their share of rule breaking.

Concrete examples of people laughing off their fines - well, I know two from personal experience. One was a friend and Queen's student from NJ (very rich Daddy in the pharma indeustry), and the other through my exceedingly short stint as a paralegal. Not to mention all the times as a bartender or waitress that I overheard out of town students talking about how funny and easy it was to get away with it.

All in all though, I agree with you on the major point: these are matters between the individual students and the authorities. Where Queen's could do a better job is to eject any offensive students, better organize alternative events, and work with city landlords, utilities providers and by-law enforcers to make sure they can hold the university up as the example it claims to be.

[queenskingston]

Good points, but like I have said before, it is up to the police and residents to report these matters to the University. You can read the reports yourself, no Queen's Student was charged for arson, rioting or abusing police officers. The only major offense (just talking about Aberdeen here) was the public intoxication in which many students were fined for their behavior. They cannot punish someone with expulsion for a minor offense and if any Queen's Students were charged with something like arson etc, trust me they would be disciplined heavily.

Queen's has ejected SEVERAL students for high level offenses such as rape and assault. The punishment fits the crime and these minor offenses such as public intoxication must be dealt with accordingly. I am stressing the point that on Aberdeen night, the torching and flipping of that car was committed to people who do not go to Queens, and if it was Queen's people, the police did not arrest these people. The people that were arrested were from other Universities. These are concrete facts.

If you were caught speeding, do you think an appropriate punishment would be 20 years in jail?

[queenskingston]

As far as "laughing" off fines, I find it particularly funny that your concrete examples were from people who are wealthy. Most people who are wealthy, laugh off small amounts of money because they are so rich. Did you know that not all Queen's Students are rich and rich students make up a small portion (less that 25%) of the entire student population.

[SLN]

where did the speeding thing come from? 20 years in jail? what?

[queenskingston]

My point with the speeding thing is that thus far at Queen's the punishments have fit the crimes. Students have been charged with such offenses as Public Intoxication and having unsanctioned keg parties and the AMS has fined them a great deal as well as whatever the fine from the cops was. Recentely there was a incident with the stealing of a boat and some sort of couch fire where students were arrested. The AMS is still dealing with this matter and punishing those involved and possibly a major punishment will occur after process.

Many Kingstonians want Queen's students to be expelled from school when there has been no documented MAJOR offense to warrant such a punishment. If someone is drunk in public, Queen's cannot expel them, it is much too harsh of an offense for expulsion, what the students are given are fines.

So my point is that if you were caught for speeding, do you think 20 years in jail would be appropriate? Obviously not, what I am saying is that unless a student is reported BY POLICE, LANDLORDS, CITY BY-LAW OFFICIALS for major offenses, students cannot be expelled.

This is where the city residents and police force must do their job.

does that make sense?

[queenskingston]

Sorry, I mean City Officials instead of City Residents, typo.

[Lydia]

Queenskingston, Have you ever witnessed an accident where speeding was involved???

Have you ever killed anyone because you were speeding???

Until you have i would suggest that you rethink about what punishment is enough for drinking and driving, racing on a public highway.

Just to let you know I HAVE WITNESSED THE results, Just to let you know I had a friend who did KILL someone and he lived.

According to him, 20 years isn't enough to erase the fact that he was that stupid and self-centered and he has never gotten over it.

Ill tell you what, if you have a stomach for it and really want to know what happens, volunteer with the police, volunteer on a distress help line, volunteer at a hospital. Then tell us what kind of punishment is enough.

How do i know, I have done it.

[queenskingston]

My apologies, I meant just the crime of speeding.

IE If are speeding and stopped by cops but no one is hurt, should you get 20 years in the slammer? Absolutely not.

Your next point will probably be, well someone COULD get killed by speeding, however, still such a harsh punishment could not be enacted because it is much to harsh to fit the crime, if you were only stopped for speeding and that was your only offense. Speeding and then killing someone as a result in is a different story.

[SLN]

listen, the speeding thing is a moot point all around. People don't get 20 years for speeding, and in my recent memory, no group of people have killed more innocent bystanders by speeding than the police themselves. (Phil Quattrochi, anyone? He's dead. Why? Because of a cop who was speeding. Happens all the time. Seems that stolen cars are more important than people on the streets)

but .. that's off topic...

The point is that criminal behaviour is criminal behaviour, and Queen's can choose to deal with their students' behaviour any way they choose to. They are free to let local authorities deal with the consequences any way they choose to. It just seems to me that they are being arrogant and ultimately irresponsible to wash their hands completely of the incidents that occur during homecoming.

If I were mayor or police chief, I'd make damn sure to shut all homecoming festivities down COMPLETELY until Queen's lived up to their responsibilities.

I would not grant any special liquour permits, and I'd instruct the cops to bust up any gathering of partiers anywhere in the city during that weekend. It'd be easy. After all - don't know if you know this - but city council once enacted a by-law that prohibited 3 or more people from standing together downtown. It was ludicrous and quickly repealed. However, the same thing could be done to great effect for the homecoming weekend. N'est-ce pas?

[Lydia]

:) :) No need for apologies, Queenskingston. I fully understand that you are for fairness in penalties for crimes of any sort and I happen to agree with you.

Don't tell anyone but I have had a speeding ticket myself.:eek: :eek: I just want you to understand that there happens to be degrees of the same crimes. Therefore I agree someone with a speeding ticket should not be put in jail for 20 years however if some one is speeding for a JOY ride and does kill someone than they should.

The problem is that as people, we never think things will turn bad for us. We get into habits that become dangerous. By the grace of (a higher power) I have only witnessed events.

Believe it or not, When I was yours age ( HAY I WAS) i held the same view points you did. That just happens to be the wisdom of youth. I personally am proud of you for holding strong to your desire for respect of Queens students and people your generation.

[queenskingston]

Thank you Lydia for the kind words.

SLN, this is my point exactly. Queen's has instructed the police to do what they need to do to control the students, but it is their responsibility as police to do that. Queen's University has no authority to arrest anyone.

[Exhibitionist]

Queen’s principal vows action on Aberdeen

By Ian Elliot
Local News - Wednesday, June 14, 2006 @ 07:00

Queen’s University Principal Karen Hitchcock says there is no single solution to the annual Homecoming chaos on Aberdeen Street, but gave assurances yesterday that the university is tackling the issue.

While she concedes there will be an unsanctioned Saturday night party on Aberdeen this year, she hopes steps taken by the school and the city will avoid a repeat of the bottle-throwing melees of recent years.

“There is a perception that we can do something and it will stop this,” she said in a meeting with The Whig-Standard’s community editorial board.

“But the reality is there are 30, 40, 50 main factors playing in. Some we can control, but so many areas are out of the hands of the institution.”

Hitchcock identified binge drinking as chief among the problems, saying the school could do little to curb it.

“That’s a societal issue,” she said.

“Students don’t get a drinking problem from going to Queen’s, they bring it with them.

She said the university has a number of “strategies and tactics” that it will use in the months and weeks leading up to Homecoming, but played them close to the vest, saying to reveal them publicly would diminish their effectiveness.

However, she and the Alma Mater Society will be writing letters to the families of all incoming students before school starts in hopes of stressing the need for an orderly Homecoming, and the school is looking to forbid students in residence most of them first-year people from having guests in their rooms that weekend.

Alumni will also play a role in trying to enforce civilized behaviour, she said.

A task force on which the school, city councillors, police and residents are represented is expected to make a series of recommendations on how to manage the party. That report will outline some concrete steps the school can follow.

“There is a perception that we’re doing nothing, and that’s just not true,” said Hitchcock, who noted that other schools in Canada and the United States are wrestling with similar massive drinking events involving students and none of them has solved the problem with one stroke.

Kingston Police have mused aloud about using riot squads and other crowd-control measures on Aberdeen, particularly after a smaller version of the massive Homecoming event was staged by students at the end of the spring term. The principal said if firehoses and other street-clearing tactics are used to clear the street, that won’t be a decision that the school has a role in.

“If something happens, how will it be dealt with? That’s the police force’s decision.”

Hitchcock also said she plans to strike a task force to examine residence issues at the university, which could look at expanding the area populated by students further away from the campus, with input from the city and other groups. It could also look at different styles of housing, as a graduate student with a family requires different housing from an 18-year-old undergrad.

“We have to get away from the belief that every student has to live five minutes away from class,” she said.

She also reiterated that the university plans to hold enrolment at around 20,000, and future growth will come in the areas of graduate studies and research, areas that also stand to benefit the community through technology spinoffs and economic activity.

“If you keep increasing your undergraduate program, the quality will go down unless you hire many, many more faculty,” she said, noting the school has had difficulty recruiting enough professors to keep pace with the number who are retiring.

[queenskingston]

I hope my comments and discussion were taken constructively over the past few weeks, I just thought it would be good to hear both sides of the story along with concrete facts.

Hopefully Homecoming this year will be a success.

[Lydia]

Thanks QueensKingston, You did excellent by showing everyone on here and especially me a better understanding of the way students truly feel.

She is right the students with addictions didn't get them at Queens. They had addictions before they came to Queens.

I just wonder if there is an opportunity to have an AA group started for Queens students that might have a problem. I believe that if a support group was created on campus, just maybe some students would benefit. If students had parents with addictions then there should also be a Alonon(??) support group for them as well. This might be something that Queens University might look into and set up.

[queenskingston]

I believe there is something like that available but I am not sure, it sure is a great idea.

[billygoat]

listen, the speeding thing is a moot point all around. People don't get 20 years for speeding, and in my recent memory, no group of people have killed more innocent bystanders by speeding than the police themselves. (Phil Quattrochi, anyone? He's dead. Why? Because of a cop who was speeding. Happens all the time. Seems that stolen cars are more important than people on the streets)

but .. that's off topic...



Yes it is, but I can't let this go.

First of all, do you have the total numbers of motor vehicle collision fatalities? Of that number, what per centage are a direct result of police speeding?

In fact, the majority of car accident fatalities occur without any police involvement.

As for the one incident you referred to that occurred several years ago in Kingston involving a police car...the civilian blew a red light. But I guess that's the police officer's fault. While the KPD was more than happy, typically, to try to eat their own in a knee jerk reaction to the Whig's garbage, the officer in question was aquitted.

[Lydia]

Okay, Billy, I think that SLN tried to show that police speeding around isn't always a good thing.

Example: I WITNESSED two times where a Police Chase INTO OLD COLONY PARK could have KILLED anyone walking in the park. There were at least TWO INCIDENTS IN THE PAST 2 YEARS WHERE THEY HAD A POLICE CHASE HAPPENING.

First one, the guy they were chasing actually came in on Old Colony Road entrance and escaped on the Milfred Street area. Had anyone been on the path they would have been dead. Young children always play in the park.

Second one, the police chased a stolen car which caught fire and could have burned down the bush. Again they didn't get the kids that stole the car. Again in Old Colony Park

I fully believe that the police have NO CHOICE and have to do a car chase to catch the criminals, however, I think that when this happens in a residential area, people can be killed.

I also believe that if you are going to have police officers walk around in the Old Colony Park at night trying to catch the kids from drinking in the park, They should at least WEAR THEIR BADGETS. Although the police officers around here think that it is just great to wear BLACK AND NOT HAVE ANY BADGETS ON THEIR UNIFORMS, I don't. There have been MOLESTERS WHO IMPERSONATED POLICE OFFICERS IN TORONTO. How is a Kid suppose to know?

If a drunk young man thinks that he is the TARGET of a molester because the POLICE OFFICER would not show his badge and starts to fight back, this young man gets arrested for combat instead of just being drunk and not doing anything bad.

I'm sorry I WITNESSED THIS MYSELF. It happens. That is why I am not all that happy with the way police do things around here.

[billygoat]

Lydia, you're all over the place here.

First of all, SLN was talking about general speeding by police, not car chases specifically, and how this general speeding kills people more than other accidents that don't involve police. That's what I was rebutting. If I'm wrong, show me the numbers.

Car chases are governed by specific rules and for the most part, they are called off by police.

As for officers wearing badges, no idea what you're referring to here. Uniformed officers are just that - in uniform - and are thus readily identifiable as police officers.

Plain clothed officers are just that - not in uniform - and obviously don't need to identify themselves as police officers until they are going to make an arrest.

[Lydia]

Plain clothed officers are just that - not in uniform - and obviously don't need to identify themselves as police officers until they are going to make an arrest.

Okay, Billy, I understand the concept of officers that are undercover. Tell me something do the officers undercover enter into the wooded areas of Old Colony Park when it is dark out to catch a drunk??

When the officer is going to make an arrest, SHOULD THAT OFFICER THEN PRODUCE A BADGET????? Well that is exactly what the officer did, He arrested a kid who's only cime was that he was drunk in the park and was NOT going to produce a badge when the kid asked to see it.

The kid was NOT RUNNING AWAY he didn't know who was attacking him in the dark. He came to our door and told us he was being attacked. We took him over to a OPP officer who lived next door to us and the Kid when willingly. Does that sound like the kid was running away?

Again if an officer is undercover there should be a REASON not just on patrol. Whether the officers here in Kingston think it is okay, the Officers in Toronto don't.

[Exhibitionist]

I have no idea where this discussion is going?

Can someone please point me in the right direction?

I thought this was about the Homecoming?

[queenskingston]

It is supposed to be about Homecoming, but an off topic point made by SLN started this discussion.

Hopefully we can get back to the Homecoming issue after this discussion.

[Lydia]

Sorry Folks, you are both correct, ************* and Queenskingston

SLN did mention about the police speeding around kingston, Billy, argued that the police are not dangerous, and I just wanted to say speeding does kill and it all started with homecoming.
:D :D :D

[queenskingston]

Just curious about what the ideal way you guys think Queen's should handle this situation?

Realistically, what would you like to see happen?

[Exhibitionist]

I do not think in my lifetime homecoming could be banded...

But, I do not see what real point or positive verse negatives it offers us all.

And frankly - don't worry I do not wish to be educated "in the tradition."

I'm find living with whatever happens.

Hopefully no harm comes to anyones property or persons.

[queenskingston]

Hopefully I can hammer this point home.

Queen's Homecoming is where alumni come into town to see their old friends and professors and attend the football game.

Over the years, students have partied hard during the Homecoming festivities, but its just that, something that happens during that weekend.

An Aberdeen party will still occur during the beggining of the school year, regardless of whether Homecoming exists or not. Aberdeen is not part of the Homecoming, it just happens on that weekend.

This is why Queen's refused to pay for the policing that weekend.

As far as good points, it allows alumni to come in and see their old college friends, and along with them coming into town, Kingston generates hundreds of thousands of dollars from these rich tourists.

Its unfortunate that most Kingston residents cannot seperate these events.

I am not against Homecoming banned, but its not the solution to this problem.

[Lydia]

The BEST THING that I believe Queens should do with students who were onlookers, is to have them met the VICTIMS of the crimes in order to tell their story about how the actions of a few have affected them.

The SECOND BEST THING that I believe Queens should do with students who were directly involved with the situation is to force these students to WORK DIRECTLY FOR THE VICTIMS TO REPAY ANY FINANCIAL LOSSES. When I say REPAY ANY FINANCIAL LOSSES I mean that the students and NOT THEIR PARENTS compensate the VICTIMS. The students should get paid for fixing the problems and then HAND OVER THE MONEY DIRECTLY TO THE VICTIMS.

The Third thing would have a place where students with addictions met and support each other in order to quit the addictions.

[queenskingston]

I think you make some good points, as far as community service, that is already a punishment that is in effect.

As far as making fines larger because many students at Queen's are rich is not possible. Donald Trump recieves the same parking ticket as I do.

[queenskingston]

If you don't want to hear about the good things about Homecoming, then you will never see that point. Dialogue is a two way street.

[queenskingston]

Sorry Lydia, you did not say anything about increasing the fines, that must have just come to me from someone elses post, my mistake.

[Lydia]

You are correct Queenskingston, Homecomings can and should be a fun time, a nice way to make new friends, a nice way to end the year's worth of hard studying.

Homecomings can be a joy and very supportive time, Entertainment is a main stay of enjoying life and it should be held.

Time for students to relax and be thankful for being a student of Queens. A time to realize that you have joined an organization that should be respected, and recognized for achievement.

Of course that is what homecoming should be. Hopefully, this year it will be.

[andrewpmk]

I doubt it if the hardcore partygoers will be deterred from holding a party on Aberdeen Street whatever Queen's tries to do. That said, less active participants might be deterred if Queen's warns them of the potential consequences. If the less active participants do not attend, the hardcore participants will be less crazy because they will no longer be "anonymous". To keep casual participants away and reduce problems, alcohol sales (particularly in bulk) should be restricted around Homecoming.

[queenskingston]

I think thats a really good idea, and should be put into effect.

[clio44]

It's no coincidence that RMC students, who do have their parties and drinking extravaganzas in town from time to time, do not engage in the same behaviour as Queen's students; nor do they exhibit the same antagonistic and self-centered attitude if caught. They know that they face serious consequences if they cross the line.
Ha! RMC students acting appropriately? Forgive my shock and sarcasm, but I personally know about quite a few people who go out and do stupid things, mind you in small numbers, and when threatened with expulsion, simply name-drop and mention so-and-so's their father and suddenly they're not even requested to apologize. Thinking they are all model citizens because they fear getting kicked out of RMC is just as ridiculous as thinking the morons who flipped over the car feared getting caught by police. I'm sorry, but I truly believe that the only reason we don't see this happening with RMC students (and believe me it does still happen -- but is rarely reported on because of the military's desire to 'deal with it', ie. put it under wraps) is because there are way fewer of them, and since most live on campus they cannot host a party like Queen's or St. Lawrence students can. If I'm wrong, sue me, but I've met way more upstanding citizens from Queen's and St. Lawrence than from RMC (and while I'm at it, I have not yet found an RMC student who I'd trust with my life, except my boyfriend of four years who left RMC due to the bureaucracy and constant BS -- even most of his friends left due to the same thing...... imagine the types who are left!)
Okay, I realize I'm off-topic here, but I can't stand to see everyone forget these people are stupid and can come from anywhere, even such 'impressive' institutions as RMC.

[clio44]

Sorry guys, I was just posting a reply to the thread as I read it -- too bad it appears at the end..... I'm still not 100% certain how to post correctly!!

As to possible solutions....... I honestly think gating off the main affected areas and bringing in a riot squad would deter the not-as-enthusiastic partiers from even ENTERING the area. I think that would lead to more, smaller house parties, which hopefully would be easier to police. These people who torch things and act so immaturely need to realize that this isn't a high school party where everything you do is swept under the carpet -- they're doing criminal things here, and need to be treated as criminals. If they aren't doing such things, they should have the intelligence to get out if they don't want to be punished. I'm talking exclusively about Aberdeen Street here, not Homecoming. I personally wouldn't care if they stopped Homecoming, and don't plan to attend it after I graduate, but I realize it's something a lot of people enjoy innocently and sure it brings some money to Kingston. However, saying that it shouldn't be stopped BECAUSE it's a tradition is faulty logic. Think about the old tradition of the Grease Pole -- and how they used to throw animal parts into the water and mud to make it even grosser, until people started getting really sick. THAT was a tradition, too. I'd like them to continue with Homecoming, but if the ONLY thing to prevent another Aberdeen Street occurrence was to stop it, then I'd vote to stop it. However, I do feel we have other options, and that we should focus on those rather than keeping Homecoming BASED on a tradition.

[billygoat]

Ha! RMC students acting appropriately? Forgive my shock and sarcasm, but I personally know about quite a few people who go out and do stupid things, mind you in small numbers, and when threatened with expulsion, simply name-drop and mention so-and-so's their father and suddenly they're not even requested to apologize. Thinking they are all model citizens because they fear getting kicked out of RMC is just as ridiculous as thinking the morons who flipped over the car feared getting caught by police. I'm sorry, but I truly believe that the only reason we don't see this happening with RMC students (and believe me it does still happen -- but is rarely reported on because of the military's desire to 'deal with it', ie. put it under wraps) is because there are way fewer of them, and since most live on campus they cannot host a party like Queen's or St. Lawrence students can. If I'm wrong, sue me, but I've met way more upstanding citizens from Queen's and St. Lawrence than from RMC (and while I'm at it, I have not yet found an RMC student who I'd trust with my life, except my boyfriend of four years who left RMC due to the bureaucracy and constant BS -- even most of his friends left due to the same thing...... imagine the types who are left!)
Okay, I realize I'm off-topic here, but I can't stand to see everyone forget these people are stupid and can come from anywhere, even such 'impressive' institutions as RMC.

Whatever.

I've had to deal directly with Queen's students and with RMC students for the past 5 years. Some Queen's students are reasonable and respectful, and some RMC students are self-centered, arrogant twits. But the majority of RMC students that I've dealt with who were out & partying were respectful and cleaned up their act; while the majority of Queen's students in that situation were not.

It's not a coincidence that Queen's students have the ****ty reputation that they do. Not only do I have to deal with their attitude personally, but it is also displayed in their own media such as the Queen's Journal and "Golden Words".

When I think of Queen's students, I think of arrogant, whining, sheltered, self-centered snot nosed brats. Not fair? Cry me a river.

[queenskingston]

Very mature Billygoat, I am going to refrain from arguing with you because you simply just want to be right. Personally, I really hope you enjoy your time in Kingston. I'd rather focus on bigger and better things, maybe you should do the same?

[clio44]

Boy, we sure have a mature discussion to deal with here, don't we queenskingston? Geez.

Personally, I think both institutions, as well as ALL other post-secondary educational institutions in Canada, if not the world, have their share of "snot nosed brats". However, I also believe that the ones that actually GRADUATE are usually capable of coming up with better insults than that, and maybe will even have a realistic example instead of an overgeneralization based on pre-existing biases. I don't care what you think of Queen's students, Billygoat, because you have simply offered silly comparisons to young children (who, ironically enough, also resort to name-calling). Did you ever think that your position in "dealing" with these students might be a reason for the horrible treatment you so heroically endure? Are you in Admissions for example? Where they talked down to me AND my parents (when nothing else could be done as an actual student), refusing to admit me into a program I was clearly better at because having bronchitis and "almost pneumonia" 3 times in a SEMESTER wasn't deemed a medical "exceptional circumstance", even though professors and doctors were lined up to help me? This is just an example of how sometimes your position may lead to an overabundance of angry, arrogant, whining students knocking on your door.

And just because you "deal directly with Queen's students and with RMC students for the past 5 years" does not mean you actually know them, nor should you judge them based on superficial meetings. I also have dealt directly with Queen's and RMC students for the last 4 years, and have concrete examples of people who deserve not only to be kicked out of RMC but arrested for theft, destruction of property, etc, etc. You can live your sheltered life thinking that you "know" the majority of Queen's and RMC students, but we all know you don't, and that's why your point has no more weight than a 4.0 GPA from RMC.

[billygoat]

Boy, we sure have a mature discussion to deal with here, don't we queenskingston? Geez.

Personally, I think both institutions, as well as ALL other post-secondary educational institutions in Canada, if not the world, have their share of "snot nosed brats". However, I also believe that the ones that actually GRADUATE are usually capable of coming up with better insults than that, and maybe will even have a realistic example instead of an overgeneralization based on pre-existing biases. I don't care what you think of Queen's students, Billygoat, because you have simply offered silly comparisons to young children (who, ironically enough, also resort to name-calling). Did you ever think that your position in "dealing" with these students might be a reason for the horrible treatment you so heroically endure? Are you in Admissions for example? Where they talked down to me AND my parents (when nothing else could be done as an actual student), refusing to admit me into a program I was clearly better at because having bronchitis and "almost pneumonia" 3 times in a SEMESTER wasn't deemed a medical "exceptional circumstance", even though professors and doctors were lined up to help me? This is just an example of how sometimes your position may lead to an overabundance of angry, arrogant, whining students knocking on your door.

And just because you "deal directly with Queen's students and with RMC students for the past 5 years" does not mean you actually know them, nor should you judge them based on superficial meetings. I also have dealt directly with Queen's and RMC students for the last 4 years, and have concrete examples of people who deserve not only to be kicked out of RMC but arrested for theft, destruction of property, etc, etc. You can live your sheltered life thinking that you "know" the majority of Queen's and RMC students, but we all know you don't, and that's why your point has no more weight than a 4.0 GPA from RMC.

Ooooooo-kaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy then....

Thank you Clio for your illuminating rant. I'm sure it's done a lot to change for the better the view of Queen's students held by the one or two people who read this thread.

[queenskingston]

Billygoat, do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? Sorry to sound Dr. Phil on you, but I think its a valid question. You very may well be right about Queen's Students, but what good could come from namecalling? I could call you every name in the book for being a Kingston resident but I don't because its not constructive.

[billygoat]

Read my posts. I wasn't calling you or Clio names, I was stating how Queen's students are viewed by myself (& many others) - in my case, not by a pre-disposed bias, but by years of experience in dealing with them.

This generalization comes from their behaviour, the most publicized of which - though is certainly not limited to - is the subject of this thread.

I should add that in your responses - and Clio's in particular - are some of the very attributes that Queen's students are known for: defensiveness, whining, the blaming of others for their own situation (Clio's paranoid rant in which I suddenly become an admissions person, for example - though it is so extreme that clearly she needs help of some kind).

Funny how Clio permits herself to rant & rave about RMC students, but when Queen's students are criticized, it's freak out time. So please, don't lecture me about maturity.

Any observations you wish to make about Kingston residents are fine by me. For one thing I've only been here for 5 years so I'm not going to take it personally. For another, I'm sure that by doing so you'll only to continue to perpetrate the stereotypes of Queen's students as a bunch of elitist snots.

In any case, this thread has turned into a back & forth continuum with no purpose other than a need to get the last word. We agreed that in fact nothing would probably change, and we should leave it at that.

[queenskingston]

I know you weren't calling us names. My point is, what is to be gained by pointing out that Queen's students are elitist snots, could there be a way to approach the situation?

[queenskingston]

PS how do you know Clio is a girl?

[billygoat]

PS how do you know Clio is a girl?

The fact that Clio is a feminine name was one of several clues.

Of course, it's always possible that this poster is male who for some reason chose the name of one of the 9 muses from Greek mythology.

[Exhibitionist]

Is this thread about homecoming or home alone? Because i feel alone here!

I think all three of you should go to your rooms, without dessert!

[queenskingston]

I have a question Billy, what exactly is your relatinoship with Queens and RMC Students, how do you interact with them to form your opinion?

[Exhibitionist]

Careful Billy - its a loaded question. (I think she takes it personally)

Remember the points here in this thread - should maybe focus on solutions/ideas not if one has what level of insight to (all) students in this town.

[Lydia]

Queenskingston, When you and I chated before, I stated that the students who sit fire to cars and overturned them in the streets where the problem. I still stand by that position.

You, however, are totally correct when you said we should NOT BRAND STUDENTS from Queens with the same brush. YOU, MY FRIEND ARE TOTALLY CORRECT.

Just like Cleo mentioned there are good and bad in every distinct group, Queens, RMC, Police, etc. We should not brand any one just because they go to any organization or establishment.

I only have THREE questions;
1: WILL QUEENS UNIVERSITY TAKE STEPS TO PUNISH, BY EVICTING THE STUDENTS WHO ATTEND THERE AND CREATE THE PROBLEMS THAT OCCURED DURING HOME COMING OR ANY OTHER PARTY?
2: IF QUEENS WON'T DO THAT, WILL THE POLICE IN THIS CITY DO WHAT THE POLICE SHOULD DO AND LOCK AND ARREST THE STUDENTS WHO ARE THE PROBLEMS
3: WILL THE POLICE DISPURSE ANY ONE WHO IS DRUNK OR UNDER THE INFLUENCE IN A PUBLIC PLACE (STREET)??

Yes some students are spoiled and drag their family's name into the gutter but that does not apply to the MAJORITY of students.

Keep in mind that what you EXPECT YOU GET.

[Florence]

As one who graduated from Queen's 45 years ago I find the comments on homecoming interesting. No one from my graduating year will come to a homecoming. No one cares. Now I think the University experience must have changed somehow but I don't understand how. Most students at that time were from small towns all across Canada. Very different now.

Thanks to all for upgrading my degree.

[clio44]

Read my posts. I wasn't calling you or Clio names, I was stating how Queen's students are viewed by myself (& many others) - in my case, not by a pre-disposed bias, but by years of experience in dealing with them.

This generalization comes from their behaviour, the most publicized of which - though is certainly not limited to - is the subject of this thread.

I should add that in your responses - and Clio's in particular - are some of the very attributes that Queen's students are known for: defensiveness, whining, the blaming of others for their own situation (Clio's paranoid rant in which I suddenly become an admissions person, for example - though it is so extreme that clearly she needs help of some kind).

Funny how Clio permits herself to rant & rave about RMC students, but when Queen's students are criticized, it's freak out time. So please, don't lecture me about maturity.

Any observations you wish to make about Kingston residents are fine by me. For one thing I've only been here for 5 years so I'm not going to take it personally. For another, I'm sure that by doing so you'll only to continue to perpetrate the stereotypes of Queen's students as a bunch of elitist snots.

In any case, this thread has turned into a back & forth continuum with no purpose other than a need to get the last word. We agreed that in fact nothing would probably change, and we should leave it at that.
Hi again, first of all, glad to see you're educated enough to know clio is a muse, but it doesn't matter what sex I am, so please don't bring it up insinuating PMS or some other bigoted point of view. I'll address this fairly, and hopefully you won't feel the need to repeat for a third time what you have already written twice.
You say you weren't calling us names, but you know we are Queen's students and you call Queen's students names. Therefore, you call us names. I won't lose sleep over it.

Your years of experience: 5. My years of experience: 4.

Just because you have experience with some does not mean you SHOULD generalize about all..... and my comparison using my Admissions worker as an example is simply to indicate that your position may be one in which you deal with students who are having administration problems due to mix-ups, misunderstandings, or even bad advice from the administration themselves, and that can lead to disgruntled students. I had to include an example or face some insult about feelings of entitlement or being of a low IQ, or something equally rude. You simply may be in a high-risk position to encounter the frustrated..... in which case, you really should not judge based on the students you are there to help. However, since you have not provided an answer to your employment position (and I do not care), I don't assume anything. It's just something to keep in mind.

As to the comment that I need help, sure, I'd like the administration to help me when I have a problem, not hinder my education like it did for me and many others. Sure, most of the time, they do fine jobs, however, sometimes they make an error in judgement and they need to have enough of an open mind to recognize the difference between students who flunk out, and students who weren't able to go to class due to justified illness, something the rule book doesn't account for accurately enough.

Again, name-calling: "defensiveness, whining, the blaming of others for their own situation" I have defended myself against name-calling, sure. I do not whine, I did what they asked me and am currently getting straight As 2 years after insisting to the non-believers that I could. I stuck up for myself, because I'm an intelligent student and demand respect because I have earned it. I blame one person in particular for my situation, because she was extremely arrogant and made a stupid decision that cost me 2.5 years (1 year manditory "time-off", 1.5 years part-time) of my education and life. I do not blame the administration.

But enough about me, we're talking about Queen's students here. I only defend Queen's students LIKE ME, who do suffer from overgeneralizations and blatant discrimination based on the fact that we are Queen's students in a city who would rather not house our university. Unfortunately, since RMC is across the water, Kingston residents tend to have a rose-coloured view of what goes on over there, by no fault of their own. Media tends to see more that goes on with Queen's students, and considering the radical difference in numbers, that is no surprise. I'd be interested in seeing the percentage of students getting into trouble between the two universities. I have a suspicion RMC would have higher numbers, but that's only based on my experience -- and, though being 4 years' worth, I don't consider anything under 20 years extensive enough research to generalize. You may claim to know enough about everyone after 5 years, but I will not claim such nonsense next year when my experience matches yours.

I think Lydia is on track here, and we all could benefit from following suit. And please refrain from referring to us (hopefully jokingly) as children and telling us to go to our rooms; it is hardly appropriate in any forum.

clio

[Exhibitionist]

I agree with Forence - from "one" who has travelled and has a "higher current degree" - there is no where in this world - that homecoming exists. (except maybe spottingly in the US). And I am not American.

Europe in particular do have a clue what Homecoming is.

And frankly either do I. (I see little substance in it)

Frankly;; (you) the students (98%) are here for short period of time getting a B.A. - then if you graduate you move away to a job or other.

Your specific goal at Queens or any other University - is to get a degree. (period)

You will have sufficient time to have fun, learn from others and meet friends. During your brief stay.

But, ultimately you are here to work and get a degree!

So do that.

Homecoming is:

a) a consumer driven product (If your so smart - why have I not heard this.)

b) Stop taking it personally - and get to class!

c) I see nothing but a reason to consume things - that Homecoming offers. Football game?, beer, clothes sale..on campus, parties? :eek:

Yes - I agree there is some important traditions (that frankly are being marginalized because of consumerism) such as our civilized "personal milestones"...i.e birthday, marriage or birth of a child.

These are the much more important traditions in the civilized world - certainly NOT Homecoming.

NO offence to students or facility - but the latter traditions should be observed and celebrated more vigoriously. NOT HOMECOMING!

BAN IT.

[macphail]

As a Queen's grad, I look forward to the football game to see all of the (much) older grads in their school jackets and such parade around the track.

But as for the partying...that I don't take part in and I don't know how many of the mature graduates do. Homecoming should be about class reunions and celebrating life successes. Unfortunately, "Homecoming" has been hijacked by students and non-Queen's students as a reason to get drunk and act like *****s because mommy and daddy aren't around to supervise them.

Don't ban Homecoming. Clamp down on law breakers.

Cheers, Derek

[macphail]

The word "i d i o t" gets censored?!

Sheet! ;)

Cheers, Derek

[keoadmin]

Yes, we do have some arcane automatic filtering of words in the KE forums. As you can see it is not always appropriate!

:cool:

[queenskingston]

Im done arguing with *************, I'd love to stay and continue this battle of wits but your obviously unarmed.

[Lydia]

Yea, IDOITS, lol lol

I fully agree with you Derek, Don't ban the concept of homecoming, Ban the "" *****s"" lol lol

[Lydia]

*****s i mean

[Lydia]

I
D
I
O
T
S

[Exhibitionist]

It is my critical opinion - not an argument.

Again - you are here for an education that we all pay for - Homecoming is a ridiculous "tradition".

2% of all who go to University - get a PHd. Masters is maybe 8% - the rest B.A's. (Which is nothing these days)

We are in a competitive Global World - we need highly educated and skilled workers for the 21st Century.

Not party animals. Those days are gone! (..with Bill Murray and Dan A.)

Canadians wake up.......and ban such facilitating "events".

[queenskingston]

Aberdeen will still occur regardless of the existence of Homecoming. Its too bad that even after all this time you still cannot understand that.

[queenskingston]

I mean, Aberdeen-like parties, sorry typo

[queenskingston]

But in response to your post, I don't see Homecoming ever becoming banned because of the money it generates. And it is unfortunate that we live in a society where money is held up to be so important but it is that way, and I don't see society changing in that respect at all.

If you want to peace and quiet, and you want it soon, your best bet is too move, nothing will ever change.

[macphail]

If you want to peace and quiet, and you want it soon, your best bet is too move, nothing will ever change.

Forget the rules of law? Money talks?

Some students complain that they are treated like second class citizens, but your comment makes a permanent resident such as me feel like second class for if I were to contravene the noise bylaw, the police would be certain to pay me a visit and tell me to tone it down. If they had to come back a second time, I'd be receiving a ticket.

Why should Queen's students be given special treatment?

Cheers, Derek

[queenskingston]

They never have been given special treatment, I know several houses that have recieved noise violations, happens all the time. And sure, sometimes they do get away with it, and people in the city get away from it too.

But lets say you are right in this special treatment, shouldn't you be focusing on the police department and bylaw officers for not doing their job? If everyone is to be treated fairly then the authorities should do so.

[queenskingston]

I'd really like to know where the residents of Kingston are getting this info that Queens students never have to conform to any bylaws etc?

[macphail]

I'd really like to know where the residents of Kingston are getting this info that Queens students never have to conform to any bylaws etc?

I never said they "never" have to conform...I know that they do. The exception will be the Aberdeen Street party when the noise bylaw will be broken and people will be transporting open bottles of liquor on public streets.

Cheers, Derek

[queenskingston]

Yeah i guess you make a good point, but they don't check student cards down there, you should come out and see that everyone can break the bylaws that night regardless if you are a student or not.

[macphail]

Yeah i guess you make a good point, but they don't check student cards down there, you should come out and see that everyone can break the bylaws that night regardless if you are a student or not.

I agree...that's why I kept it general with "people" will break bylaws and not just "students". ;)

Heck. Maybe I'll get my money's worth and party-it-up after the football game. I'll try to do the MPA Class of '05 proud. :rolleyes:

Cheers, Derek

[queenskingston]

Yeahhhhhhhhh, now this is what i like to see.

Lets get Billy, *************, and Lydia to come too.

[Lydia]

But lets say you are right in this special treatment, shouldn't you be focusing on the police department and bylaw officers for not doing their job? If everyone is to be treated fairly then the authorities should do so.

Ah there we go finally a Queens student that agrees with me.

You forgot one thing that I would add to this.

How about QUEENS FACILITY DO YOUR JOB AND SUSPEND any student that is disruptive to this city. There are far more graduates from your university that do not need to be lumped into the reputation of the disruptive ones.

Neither the future nor the past students appreciate what happened with these party animals.

[queenskingston]

suspend in what way? Suspensions from school really only work in High School because students are expected to attend class. Doesn't really work that way in University where you could simply attend the final exam if you choose to. Now this depends on the class, however, you cannot fail a class by not attending, so suspensions wouldnt work.

[Lydia]

Football, Party, When and where lol lol lol Im there:D :D

[macphail]

Yeahhhhhhhhh, now this is what i like to see.

Lets get Billy, *************, and Lydia to come too.

I've reserved my tickets. See you in the alumni stands. ;)

Cheers, Derek

[Exhibitionist]

Homecoming is only for past now adult "students" to somehow (re-live) their experience at Queens?

And also to get their money while their here....

Ban this practice - and the "yuppy experience".

American style football is stupid - I would be bored.

I do not need to drink and act rah rah Queens - to have fun! (I am a party in a petard kind of way..)

- although maybe Lydia and Derek would make great lookin cheerleaders for Kingston Electors "team"?

[queenskingston]

Well your presence will be missed and the offer still stands if you choose to.

[macphail]

My "team" is the Gaels.

The "yuppie experience"?? It's about reuniting with old classmates and folks never before.

"American style" football? It's Canadian rules on a Canadian-sized field.

Cheers, Derek

[Exhibitionist]

A "team" is usually representative of a City.



The "yuppie experience"?? It's about reuniting with old classmates and folks never before.


Reuniting? - or "re-living ones youth". (I find it rather silly...)

Folks..never before? - I have enough friends. I certainly do not wish for anymore..especially drunk ones!

It really about old boys club and dollars and cents.

And the hassle it brings to this community.

Ban it now!

[queenskingston]

Unfortunately its the drunk events that make the papers. I believe macphail wants to go to the football game and meet with his old classmates in a quiet setting, which is really what homecoming is all about. Banning it would kill this oppourtunity, and I think that is what macphail is defending, not the party riot on Aberdeen.

[Lydia]

:D

My group of friends at the Cardio Resource Centre have been discussing now we could put an end to this years riot.

We all think that if US OLD TIMERS showed the kids how the 1920 to 1970 music really sounded like It. Just think Us old timers on the street singing dancing, joking around, skipping and just having a blast. That would scared the young Queen's students out of their skins.:D Ill bring the bagpipe music. and WE SHALL PARTY on that street.:D The students would be sooooo scared they wouldn't even come outside and join us.

However, we will all be SOBER when we do it . :D :


So LISTEN STUDENTS, if you act up again, US OLD FOLKS ARE JOINING YOUR PARTY. :D :D :D :D

[Exhibitionist]

No - in fact I am not referring to the drunkin party ....as my foundation to the Banning!

I think the "tradition" is frankly boring! WASPE and pathetic.

Get a life people.

I really do not wish to sponsor, talk about or care if Mc - anyone wants to "pal" up with his old boring classmates. They have obviously little in common with each other than spending a few years together...50 years ago. Now thats a deep relationship!

I've been to University clicke clubs, parties call it what you will ..and they all try to keep the "clicke club alive". Yikes. Your all so cool...........

Everytime I go to a clicke "party".. I see the same boring unimaginative people, food and drink, nothing really intelligent goes on there... half are losers with no direction in life. (No travel experience to speak to other than Disneyland)..and the other half are yellow teethed smokin frustrated parents needing some relief from their boring suburban, or meaningless work - that usually is NOT related one little bit - to the "liberal arts" degree they got 20 years ago!


Ban Homecoming!

Ban the kids that carry it on Ban it all - forever

...and get a life!

[Lydia]

:rolleyes: :cool: Yea I don't like the Mcs either, I perfer the Macs instead.

Don't like the University Clicke either, Prefer my own drunken, party going, hollering, dancing, etc Clickes of my own instead. You Know the ones I hang around now. Beside the ones i had 50 years ago can't hang with my 70 and 80 year old friendly clickes.

************* you are a hoot. My clicke will be on Aberdeen Street if the students start up again. :D :D :D

[Jeeper]

It appears ************* didn't really have the full university experience when he/she was in school. Must not have any friends to re-unite with. So maybe you should just stay out of this forum as you are just upset because you are missing out on the good times you should be having with old friends.

[macphail]

I can't wait for the game tomorrow! It will be great to see the Classes of '31 and '36 showing off their school spirit!!!

Cheers, Derek

[queenskingston]

Cheers everyone to a happy homecoming!!!!

To attend Aberdeen or not? That is the question!

[SLN]

It will be interesting to see what differences there are this year.
Hopefully everyone will compromise a bit.

I like hearing the game from my house. :) I'm not too far from Richardson.

[queenskingston]

you should go and watch! and come out after!

[Lydia]

Happy Home Coming Every one, Welcome to all past Alumini and Welcome to up and coming Students.

Enjoy the University Spirit and have a blast. I would join in but I never when to Queens, althought I was a study subject by a up and coming Physician dealing with women post Menaplause. lol lol

Anyway, Enjoy, Spread the word that we want to have a Safe, Thoughtful, and Joyful time. :) :) :) :) :)

[macphail]

I'll post some comments about the party last night later (I just rolled out of bed...didn't get home until past 3:30). However, I will say now that I was pretty impressed with what I saw and would say it was a HUGE improvement over last year.

Cheers, Derek

[macphail]

Here are some pics taken with my mobile phone. Sorry the quality is so poor...I should have brought a real camera.

That being said, the photos show (kind of) the crowds and one well known figure: Former Councillor Don Rogers. But more on him later.

9:15 PM

Arrived down at the staging area where police operations for Homecoming were operating with a friend of mine. Hung out down there for a while chatting with officers from the different police departments on how the evening was coming along. Nothing out of the ordinary was happening, but if so, they were well prepared and equipped to deal with it.

10:00 PM

Headed over to Aberdeen. It was a lovely night for a walk. We followed others who were headed over there from the vicinity of Queen's University.

Along the way, the police presense was felt. Officers were seen driving and walking around the area in a one block radius.

It was weird to arrive at Aberdeen. There were barricades set up and officers standing guard to keep an eye on things. At one end of the street was a video surveilance unit and the other end had a unit mounted on a telephone pole (both units were controlled remotely so they could tilt, pan and zoom).

Walking around, you could see that the liquor laws were being blatantly violated. Open bottles of liquor were being handled on the street and on the sidewalk. There was also a healthy number of those drinking that were under age.

Did I mention the pot? I jokingly commented to my friend at one point that I was getting the munchies. It didn't matter where you went, the smell of pot seemed to follow. But hey...maybe that was why things seemed fairly mellow on Aberdeen Street.

1:00 AM

Around this time, the police made a number of sweeps through the crowd and made arrests. I'm not sure what they were all for - there was one fight that a guy tried to pick with one of the partiers that the police quickly put a stop to - but there wasn't any real resisting of arrests. Police did walk through the crowds on occassion to dump bottles of liquor onto the pavement if people were carrying them on the street or sidewalk.

2:00 AM

Think it was around this time that I ran into Don Rogers holding his sign that reads "POLICE: Don't just stand there... Enforce all liquor laws!!"

Don's concern was that the police weren't doing enough and that all they effectively were doing was forming a permitter around Aberdeen Street to contain the problem.

Well...yes, that would seem to be the case. However, I would guess that such containment helped prevent problems from quickly spilling over to surrounding neighbourhoods. I'm sure that this will be debating for some time to come, but I think the police did a great job that night.

3:00 AM

Headed back to the police staging area to see what we may have missed. Reports were that a couple of people were tazered, but not on Aberdeen Street. A number of arrests were made, but as to the specifics, it wasn't made known to us.

COMMENTS:

I think things went extremely. The volunteers handing out plastic cups cut down on the number of broken glass that we heard about last year.

I think that having some older folks hanging around was a good idea as well. It was funny how many people mistook my buddy and I as under cover cops. lol The areas were we were standing would slowly clear out after awhile.

I think the amount of manpower brought in could have been reduced had we requested Toronto's mounted unit. Each horse is the equivalent of a several (if not more) officers. I believe concern for the safety of the horses was a factor for them not being used (Kingston's horse wasn't there).

It will be interesting to read in the Whig what their perspective on the evening is.

That's all from this mild-aged Homecoming attendee.

Cheers, Derek

[billygoat]

I agree that Homecoming in general was much better this year than last.

The worst event that I'm aware of so far occurred Friday night (warm-up night) when bottles were thrown at police on Aberdeen St. for several minutes. Unfortunately they didn't have the presence that they did Saturday.

Saturday saw many more people than last year in the general area. I'm guessing at least 10,000 people in the area from Alfred to Barrie, Princess to Earl.

But no carpet of broken glass, no violent atmosphere as existed last year. I put it to a combination of things which macphail already touched upon: replacing bottles with plastic cups (a great initiative); the many volunteers in red ball caps helping to keep things 'normal' to some extent; perhaps the Queen's ad campaign as well...cause I have to give credit where credit is due: the students were a lot better this year. Sure there were a few a** holes here & there, many of them ending up in handcuffs. But for the most part it was a positive atmosphere.

The greatly increased police presence was most significant, and it was nice to see that FINALLY a Public Order Unit was called in (in this case the OPP). They didn't even need to resort to clubs & shields, their presence was enough.

Incidently, despite Don Rogers' obsessions, the police were enforcing the Liquor Laws. They were being smart about it too - instead of indiscriminately charging everyone for every little thing (which would have been impossible to do anyway), they focused on those with bottles...though I did see that sometimes even those with cups were being made to dump their contents. As well, various keg party organisers were charged earlier in the day. (And anyway, who cares what Don Rogers has to say - this is the same guy who suggested as a cost saving measure that police drive VW Beetles with one cherry light on the roof!)

Some people who stupidly lit off fireworks in the street were also charged, as were others instigating fights and whatnot.

The whole thing was sort of like a New Orleans mardi gras festival, and maybe it really will become an anual fixture. The question is whether or not the City wants that to be allowed, but it seems the decision has been made.

[Florence]

If this atmosphere can be duplicated, the addition of music ( local bands) would be great!

[SLN]

I'm SO happy that everything went well.
I wouldn't want to live in a city that was proud of being a wet-blanket, but I also don't want to be at the mercy of throngs attending Queen's events, either.
Looks like a balance was struck, which means that people on both sides compromised. That's a very encouraging sign.

:)