Why was Rosen Elected? Let Me Count the Ways

[keoadmin]

I.M.Pertinent

i.m.pertinent@hotmail.com (i.m.pertinent@hotmail.com)

WHY WAS ROSEN ELECTED? LET ME COUNT THE WAYS



You've got to feel a little sorry for Harvey Rosen. The good mayor is living proof that you can't please everyone - especially in Kingston. He's either being whined at for doing too much or too little; moving too fast or too slow; running too many public processes or not consulting the public enough; spending too much and not spending enough; putting too much and not enough emphasis on recreational infrastructure. The guy can't win. Posters on the KE non-competence thread have thrown out a couple of reminders why Rosen was elected by a landslide in the first place (and Isabel Turner was not). There are way more:

1. Wayne Newton. The Whig's front page said it best: "Danke Schoen for Nothing Wayne." An ill conceived, poorly timed, badly executed Wayne Newton concert cost the city tens of thousands of dollars. No one showed up.

2.. Tall Ships. The city lost thousands more on what was supposed to be a no-risk tourist draw.

3. The city planning and engineering department. Dozens of Ontario Municipal Board hearings. One of Kingston’s biggest housing developers threatens to take his business elsewhere. No clue what customer service means. (Maybe Rosen still has some work to do on this front)

4. KEDCO. New business plan after new business plan. Where are the new businesses? (Lots of work needed here too)

5. Funding. Provincial Tory government ignored Kingston while it handed out millions in infrastructure cash to just about every other town and city in Ontario.

6. Memorial Centre. Spectators have to bring umbrellas to hockey games because the roof leaks.

7. Lie detector tests. Leaked contents of closed-door council meetings prompted a police investigation of councillors, staff and private citizens.

8. Studies, studies, studies but never any action.

9. The Gong Show. Only reason to tune in to Tuesday night’s council broadcast was to watch Turner lose her control and her temper.

10. Smoking by-law. Turner and several other councillors declare a conflict of interest and abstain from voting on the most important bylaw of council's three year term.

[Lydia]

You hit it on the head Keoadmin when you out lined BEAUTIFULLY why Mr. Rosen was elected Mayor.

He certainly has stirred up things. When i think of Mayor Hazel, Mayor of Mississauga, I often think of the ways she stirred up things. The difference it seems is that she at least listened to the public. staff, and had expressed her opinion many times on her stand on things.

Would I vote for Mayor Rosen again. Yes because it is only when you have someone who stirs up the crap and let it fall where it might that you can actually clean things up that otherwise would be below the surface.

Am I happy with his discussions on the LVEC. Hell NO. However, I would prefer to have him over Mayor Isabell anyday.

Most of the reasons you outlined actually happened during Her term.

[Florence]

Just great! We elected Rosen because we didn't like Turner!
Let me give you some things that Turner DID do.
1 - Developed a strategic plan
2. Growth Study
3. Transportation Study
In other words tried to institute long-term planning. I guess that was too much for us eh Pertinent?

[DickTindal]

It is often said "be careful what you wish for, because it may come true." People may have wanted a mayor and council that would be more decisive, as you suggest, but that always works best in practice when they decide the way you want them to. Supporters of LVEC doubtless applaud the decisive leadership on this issue, while opponents see instead obstinacy and even arrogance. As usual, where you stand depends on where you sit.

As for your reasons why the mayor was elected (or the previous mayor defeated), I have always felt that the financial loss attributed to the Tall Ships was overstated because it reflected only direct costs and did not take into account the spinoff benefits to the local economy from the influx of sightseers. Even the Wayne Newton fiasco has to be judged in light of the current mantra that municipal governments are supposed to run more like a business – being entrepreneurial and seeking creative ways to generate revenues. When you act more business-like and pursue revenues, you also increase the risk that – like many businesses – you will also incur some losses. It is easy after the fact to say that the city should not have been involved in either the Wayne Newton concert or the Tall Ships, but let’s not forget that many were urging the city to take on just such initiatives.

It seems a little strange that the previous mayor would lose support, as you suggest, because a Tory government did not provide financial support to a municipality with a Liberal member. That is both true and deplorable (although hardly a new pattern), but how could the mayor be responsible? Mind you, who says the voters are fair.

As for your reference to the “Gong Show,” I can’t get cable TV out in the “boonies” where I reside, so I can’t judge whether the performance has improved this term. But I can’t imagine that council’s performance can be any worse than the other reality TV programs that I do get.

[Lydia]

Let me give you some things that Turner DID do.
1 - Developed a strategic plan
2. Growth Study
3. Transportation Study
In other words tried to institute long-term planning. I guess that was too much for us eh Pertinent?

Hold on Florence, hold on to your hat. Don't give credit for these things to Isabell. To Bennet yes, Isabelle NO.
Do you remember when the city has asked for the public to get involved with the Strategy and Long Range Planning program? The studies you spoke of where PART AND PARCEL of that program. Under Isabell it was dismantled and a new program called Focus too it's place.

Mind you Focus did keep the wordings of the committee members on those studies and are using them now. How do i know about this. I was on them.

Like I said people were upset with Isabelle because there had been at least 10 decisions to be made by council during her rein and SHE cleared CONFLICT OF INTEREST on these decisions. Had she told the newspapers her stand and why she couldn't give her view points at council, people probably would have voted her in again.

Another thing that was against her was that she was looked upon as a mayor that had given her friends special deals. I can remember a conflict associated with a parcel of land being bought or sold, (not sure now but i am sure i could look it up in the Whig).

I of course do not trust a mayor who opening said that she knew were money was hiding away from the present council. I can say that because I personally did work ONCE for her campaign and i heard her say so. That was before I really got to know her. Of course that was another reason for me voting Mayor Harvey.

[Evelyn King]

:p Hey Folks:

If the taxpayers of Kingston had an accurate accounting of the tax dollars that Rosen and his band of merry men and women has committed the citizens of this great city to, I'm sure everyone would be truly disgusted.

Take a look at the Harv's top 7 priorities folks.

Thus far:

Ravenshoe was originally budgeted for 75 million with a 25 million committment from the three levels of government.
Interestingly, the costs are now over 100 million and rising since it is not completed. Guess who pays the rest???

The expansion of John A. MacDonald Blvd. rings in at 25 million.

The K & P Trail is still up in the air as the city is still in negogiations with Bell. Can you hear the ding of the cash flow??

The Grand Theatre renovations are currently at 9 million and will probably be more.

Need I say much about the Market Square oops, or is it the Springer, Reid. Hood square?? And by the way, they are now talking to the Springers on the Frontenac deal and I really wonder if the city will disclose how many taxpayers dollars will be paid out on that deal. The last one when people wanted the info, they had to file a Freedom of Information form and still did not learn the exact amount on the last contract for the Frontenacs.

Multiplex, who knows, it will be costly if it ever reachs fruition.

The LVEC, currently is at 37.5 million, of course, this does not include the purchase of the land, the relocation of the ship rebuilding business or the extension of the Wellington Street extension.

One would think we are a very rich city but do the math folks. It is easy to have illusions of grandeur with other peoples money.

Thank goodness that next year is an election year and in my view the whole darn council has to go.

Best regards to all,

Evelyn

[Lydia]

You are right on the money Evelyn but be careful otherwise I.M. Pertinent might think you are one of those people who are banning together to stop the bull crap from this council.

Oh I just realized those people who are banning together are the CITIZENS OF KINGSTON. Those people are getting so powerful that are actually organizing together so that THE TAXPAYER DOESN'T GET SCREWED. OOPs.

lol lol

[Evelyn King]

Hey Lydia:

I am so proud to be a part of the citizrn uprising!!!!!!

When Rosen was on the Board of Control it was pretty obvious then what his agenda was. I did not vote for Rosen for mayor and I feel extremely proud of that fact.

It is pretty exciting what is happening in the city of Kingston currently. In the upcoming election, in 2006, the citizens will ensure their X means something. As it stands now in this community, there are a few unelected people who seem to have great influence on some members of council and I will work diligently next year to ensure they will not be re-elected. The people are taking back our city.

POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards to all,

Evelyn

[I.M.Pertinent]

Evelyn, Lydia, I think you may be conveniently overlooking the fact that an overwhelming majority of Kingston citizens appear to be in favour of the LVEC, the multiplex and/or the naming rights on Market Square. There are roughly 116,000 citizens in Kingston. By the numbers, in order to claim majority opposition to a project like LVEC, some 60,000 people would have to step up to the plate to object. That's far more than the 200 or so (and I think I'm being generous with that number) who have stated opposition to the LVEC so far. The anti-LVEC group is a special interest group lobby group. Rosen would lose my vote and my respect in a minute if he could be swayed by a political lobby representing 200 or so voters. Citizen uprisings are perfectly OK, bring 'em on, but we live in a democracy where the agenda of the few should not be shoved down the throats of the masses.

In terms of council mis-spending, that's a pretty safe topic to criticize. Anyone who's been around Kingston for more than a day knows municipal staff are incapable of estimating major project costs with any degree of accuracy. We also know that if we delay projects year after year the pricetag goes up. Delaying LVEC (demanding more reports, more public input, more studies) has no doubt served to drive the project costs higher as well. Will the uprising citizens take responsibility for adding expenditures themselves?

[macphail]

OH, how you make me chuckle I.M.

Pertinent? Perhaps. Dreaming? Most definitely.

The "anti-LVEC" folks, if you would look a little harder, are not all against the plans for an LVEC. Unfortunately, it is simply easier for proponents of the project to put labels on them - a practice that Mayor Rosen has shown a penchant for when he referred to opposition to those who dared say "No" to his development plans as being BANANAS.

Furthermore, there are most definitely more than 200 people opposed to the Anglin Bay location for the LVEC. Personally, I am for the concept of this kind of venue, but strongly opposed to situating it on Anglin Bay.

Speaking of agendas, whose agenda was it that an LVEC must be built? If you want to play that game, let's play pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey and say the LVEC agenda was pushed by the downtown, business, and construction community, the very same people who supported Rosen. An LVEC wasn't even a main priority for the people of Kingston but it was a campaign ploy that people ate up. If people knew beforehand that it was going to be located on Anglin Bay - and judging from Rosen's first speech where he talks about other lakefront development opportunties - I'm sure that it would have given people sober second thought. As it stands, what the people ate is giving many of them indigestion.

And finally, for laying all the blame for the under estimation of project costs at the feet of municipal staff is wrong and goes to show how ill informed you are of such matters.

Perhaps you say such outrageous things knowing that you can hide behind a alias. What else to expect from an arm chair quarterback?

Cheers, Derek

[Lydia]

Evelyn and I are not overlooking the fact that an overwhelming majority of Kingston citizens appear to be in favour of the LVEC or the Mulplex. I for one AM VERY MUCH IN FAVOUR OF both of these.
I also think that naming rights on anything that is part of this city SHOULD NOT BE BOUGHT BUT EARNED because of unconditional service or gift from our citizens.

There has been over 3000 people who signed a petition to STOP the LVEC from being at Anglin Bay. Those were collected over less that one month of signature gathering. Those 3000 people were not AGAINST THESE PROJECTS ONLY THE LOCATIONS. These people are concerned with the financial arrangements being done. Example is where the City BORROWS money from the banks to pay for these projects and then allows the businesses to pay back the loan over 30 years. My question is this. Are those same businesses also going to pay for the amortization fees over those 30 years as well??

Who gives money to the city as a gift with assurance that the money would not be a tax deducation against assets they possess?
Who gives money to the city as a gift without getting sole concession rights at the LVEC. Will other businesses who are competitors also be allowed to do business at the LVEC??

Please tell me who does that because ONLY THEN would i be extremely happy to give them naming rights on the LVEC or another other newly build projects that this city is going to do.

When you said that Rosen would lose your vote and respect in a minute if he could be swayed by a political lobby representing 200 or so voters, I fully agree with you. That is why i get upset with this situation. We agree when you say Citizen uprisings are perfectly OK, bring 'em on, and that we live in a democracy where the agenda of the few should not be shoved down the throats of the masses.

I. M. Pertinent, You and I are not as far apart as it may see from our postings. Infact we are very much alike (poor you) lol lol. I fully realize that our hearts are in the right places and that your side and my side need to be right but are we happy with what is happening. NO you and I are not happy with the results so far at all.

Believe it or not, I actually have more faith n the municipal staff in estimating major costs. I just believe that they are not given the ""full picture"" about what we want. This is why I believe very strongly in the Community Advisory Groups that the city sets up. The problem is when Council does not listen to these people's advice because someone who appears to have more power comes in and starts dismissing staff's advise.

Just for a moment let's examing your statement and let's assume that you are correct when you said the following. "In terms of council mis-spending, that's a pretty safe topic to criticize. Anyone who's been around Kingston for more than a day knows municipal staff are incapable of estimating major project costs with any degree of accuracy."" If you are correct then don't you believe like I do that there is a reason for this? Should WE educate our staff to FULLY understand and Learn how to calculate EXACT costs so this city isn't taken advantage off? After all why are we paying our staff if we find them incompetent?? (Or is it the Management???)

We also know that if we delay projects year after year the pricetag goes up. Delaying LVEC (demanding more reports, more public input, more studies) has no doubt served to drive the project costs higher as well. I agree with your statement here. If i should blame someone, I now have to blame Council again. Let Council communicate with the people who ""REALLY" are concerned with projects, that includes the Developers, Councilors, Staff, Advisory Groups, and yes Residents. Instead of having many many different meetings. Could they not have ONE MEETING where everyone who will have an affect on these projects come together and really hash things out. Instead of starting projects without informing people. I have seen councilors say one thing in front of Advisory Groups only to go to Council and say just the opposite. I have a motto "If you have NOTHING TO HIDE, THEN YOU HIDE NOTHING".

If these councilors do that to Advisory Members, who councilors VOTED to help them do this, What do they say to Developers, What do they say to Staff? Can you trust them to be honest on everything. I have to give my hat off to George Stoparczyk because He has NOT CHANGED HIS POSITION ONCE. ( I am not happy with that but I fully fully respect him and we are on opposite sides).

Lol something like you and I am, I.M. Pertinent. lol. By the way Derek you are right on the money. lol

[Evelyn King]

I. M. Pertinent:

Maybe you have assumed my position in error.

I have never stated that I am against an LVEC in this community. What I do object to is the undemocratic process that has been rammed down the throats of the Kingston community since day one. A few, could have saved the taxpayers a lot of money if they had placed two or three sites on the table when the LVEC was first
proposed. Talk about special interest groups and you only have to look at the people who have tried very hard, to influence the Anglin Bay site.

I suppose you would also agree that the Anglin Bay site is appropriate directly behind the Rideaucrest Nursing Home or the displacement of a viable business is suitable as well.

I live in the area, and the traffic currently is very noisy and the parking problem would be unbearable for this area. Maybe you could relate to our concerns if they tried to plunk something this huge in your neighbourhood.

Regarding the renaming of the Market Square, yes and I am still very angry about that, solely because it was done behind closed doors without any consultation with the citizens of Kingston. I guess you would agree with that as well.

Lydia underestimated the total on the petitions against the LVEC, it was closer to 4,000 names. Also, the petition that was generated by the supporters of the LVEC (blue T shirt gang) contained many children's names under the age of 10 and from what I understand, an 18 month old babies name was also on the list.

I will work very hard in the up-coming election in 2006 to insure that the people elected will govern for everyone in this community NOT JUST THEIR FRIENDS AND BUSINESS ASSOCIATES. If that is so terribly wrong, hey, I can live with it.

Best regards to all,

Evelyn King