Tent City

[ptech]

What do others think of the homeless setting up tents (squatting) on Block D as a protest to secure affordable housing in Kingston.

There's a web site out of Quebec encouraging others to join them in their protest by coming to Kingston and setting up camp with them.

http://www.cmaq.net/fr/node.php?id=17458

The web site explains their position and rational for setting up camp on the property.

Lets hear from you, this could be an interesting debate. :-)

[macphail]

I believe there is a role for peaceful protesting in addition to the more mainstream approaches to affecting change. As the saying goes, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

It is nice to see that the property owners have allowed this protest to take place (even though you could argue that it is in their best interest as they are land developers/landlords).

Cheers, Derek

[ptech]

I've been purusing the net for information on this group KCAP. (Kingston Coalition Against Poverty)
They've been posting their agenda with alternative media sites around the country and abroad inviting others to join them here in Kingston.

The impression I get from the nature of these sites is they appear to be very militant.

As I understand many of the social agencys in Kingston quitely support the action by this group as it brings attention to a cause that's continualy being ignored. Conditions are such that for some there is no alternative but to live on the street with social agencys unable to provide needed support.

I suppose the danger in this protest on private property is outside influance engaging in non peaceful tactics, thereby turning public opinion away from a just cause.

From the little research i've done not all of these people are homeless and looking to better their situation. Some I believe are there looking for a fight.

Only my opinion.

[nstn]

The Tent City here in Kingston does bring our growing homelessness issue into sharp focus.

Delegations to City Council tonight, and at the next Council meeting in August, will allow Tent City representatives and other community organizations to describe the homelessness issue and possible solutions more fully (see below). The new Community Plan for homelessness and housing issues for the the City of Kingston will be presented to City Council at its August meeting.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

City Council Homelessness Delegations -- July 13, 2004

(1) Linda Stevens of the North Kingston Community Health Centre, Mark Stone and Trent MacKaye will speak to Council
concerning homelessness in the City of Kingston.
(File No. CSU-C13-000-2004)
(See Clause (b), The Committee of the Whole)

(3) Alan MacDonald and Virginia Meeks of the Kingston Coalition against Poverty will speak to Council concerning
homelessness in the City of Kingston.
(File No. CSU-C13-000-2004)
(See Clause (b), The Committee of the Whole)


http://www.cityofkingston.ca/cityhall/council/council_agenda.asp

[SLN]

I was a single mother on family allowance (one child, one year of university, 23 years old) back in 1993. I lived here in Kingston and had the usual troubles: child care costs kept me from getting a job, welfare had the 'no roommates' rule, my ex didn't pay support regularly and when he did it was taken by Social services. I tell you all of this because I pulled my own rear up and out without ever living in a tent city, going to a food bank or borrowing from friends or family.

I thank God for the welfare system and wouldn't want to see it go away, but I'm telling you that you CAN survive and make it out. It's VERY difficult, mind you. It's close to soul destroying. The shame, the cycle, the traps. the fact that most agencies and organizations have no clue where to direct a person who wants to get out off the system didn't help, but I'm pretty tenacious and found my way around.

Things are very different now. I've even been a full-fledged landlord and I know both sides. It isn't right to put too much pressure on property owners to lower rents or to put up with non-payment. The market is what it is - houses cost a lot of money.. mortgage, taxes, insurance, maintenance, and when you rent to someone you must also pay for advertising, interest on their deposit, absorb costs associated with tenant misconduct and vacancies.

Tent city? Publi-CITY stunt. Chances are the funding they feel they need put into housing should actually be put into childcare subsidies, mental healthcare and an increase in the minimum wage.

[Frontenac]

Kingston has had a growing housing crisis for a number of years. Income levels have not kept up with the cost of housing.

New federal and provincial income support increases do not even keep up with inflation let alone the actual cost of basic household services.

Currently there are over a 1000 households on lists for affordable housing in Kingston. There will be no easy solution to this problem. In fact, it will probably worsen over the next few years due to the lack of development of new affordable housing.

The City of Kingston has made affordable housing a strategic priority. Starting this Fall a number of proposed solutions to this chronic problem will be brought forward for discussion by interested individuals and groups in the public, private and not-for-profit sectors.

[ptech]

Almost 2 years ago I nearly became homeless.

I was laid off from my job I'd been doing for a few years and through KEYS employment services was able to become trained as a truck driver AZ.

As my EI was about to run out I was able to get a job with a trucking company out of Kingston at the end of the year (nov).

On EI., receiving only 55% of my wage, which was near the low end of the scale anyway. I started on what I hoped would be a new career.

It didn't work out that way. I quickly learned I was just not cut out for a life on the road. I had to quit or I or some family in a minivan were going to meet our maker.

My former employer took me back, but being January, no work was available at that time of year.
I receive a small pension from the military, alittle more then what welfare pays. $536 dollars to be exact.

Living on the road as a truck driver is alot more expensive then you might think and much of my first pay went for the urine test and other expenses the company dreamed up. As a new driver the pay per mile is very low.

So now I'm back in Kingston. No job no pay no EI. no calls to come into work and no one's hiring.
The rent is now due on my batchlure apartment $477. and although I have a Job there's no more money left in the bank, I'm tapped out.
Bills still have to be paid but $496, that's the net from my pension wasn't going to do it.

Since I didn't have enough left for rent I decided to buy food with what was remaining. The food bank is only able to supply a few days worth of groceries. You have to wait about three weeks before you can request more.
Have you ever gone without eating for more then seven days.

Still no work. I broke down and went to Social Services to see if they might be able to help and was told that I did not meet the requirerments. I made to much. $536. $16 over the $525. To bad for me. I didn't meet their financial means test. They could not provide me with any services .

So now I get a second eviction notice demanding I pay up along with a penelty attached. This is March, still pretty cold out.

I have no money to eat let alone the cash for alittle over two months back rent. At this point, if my employer did call saying he had work for me, I had no financial means to get there and was slipping into a depression.

Social Services was of no help. I called the Kingston Housing Help Centre, and the response was I had to be homeless before they could prevent me from becoming homeless. As you can imagine my mood was taking a beating.

After trying to navigate the system (I also had assistance from a social worker and my doctor who became very frustrated) many of the employee's of these agencies were not always aware of what services they could or could not provide or whether I even fit their criteria. And most had no idea what services where available outside their own agency.

Without any positive hope and time running out, I had to start planning to be homeless. It left me feeling nobody cared and if they did, there was nothing they could or would do for me anyway.

I sold what was left of my belongings for food, at this point I had no money to pay next months rent let alone repaying the month before.
Having a phone was out of the question.

I was a few days from eviction, advised I would have to be homeless.
As a matter of fact, this was the only advice a worker with KFLA Mental Health Services could give me as they had no more options available.

As a last resort, I called Veteran's Affair's. They took immediate action.
They paid my past rent errers, ensured I had enough money for food and paid my phone bill so I could keep intouch with my employer and the rest of the outside world.

Very shortly after, my employer called me back to work, and I was able to slowly recoup my loses and get back on my feet.

$2500 was what it cost VAC.

Because I'm veteran and that's the only reason. I would have been living on the street. Having to listen to ignorant people yelling at me to get a job.
Calling me a drug addict. These are the polite ones.

$2500 for shelter and food is what it cost, preventing me from becoming a homeless person.
I wonder what the costs are to get someone off the street after they've been on it for awhile!

I can count my lucky stars I'm not one of those people living on Block D.
I understand, it could have happened me and it could happen to YOU.

[SLN]

It could happen to almost anyone, to be sure. What I'm saying is that putting money directly into housing isn't the answer. Asking a landlord to build ***** housing to rent to people who usually can't afford meagre rents is like asking someone to stop accepting paycheques and pay their boss instead. On the flip side, making ***** housing available to 'those who qualify' only groups 'people who qualify' together and makes them terrified to do anything that might jeopardize their 'qualification' to live there.

Two things I needed most as a single mother on welfare were: affordable, quality childcare; and, for people who worked at agencies that could help to do their jobs properly. <the OSAP people, the childcare subsidy people, the case workers, the Family Responsibility Office, etc>

Lowering rents or making evictions more difficult will just make fewer landlords, I'm telling you. Better jobs, better mental and physical healthcare, access to education, childcare subsidies, some kind of control over the cost of electricity and heating... these are more sensible options.

[macphail]

Lowering rents or making evictions more difficult will just make fewer landlords, I'm telling you. Better jobs, better mental and physical healthcare, access to education, childcare subsidies, some kind of control over the cost of electricity and heating... these are more sensible options.

I agree with you on many points, with the exceptions being childcare subsidies and the price control of electricity.

1. National Childcare: Should taxpayers foot the bill to pay so that parents can go to work, or should other avenues (co-op daycare centres, company sponsored daycare, etc.) be pursued instead?

In a community the size of Kingston, perhaps a pilot project - such as a co-op daycare where parents who would use the service would take turns providing it - would be worthy of consideration. Cost effective and local, it wouldn't rely on political whims and public funds.

2. Price Control of Electricity: As my dad always said: "If you're cold, put on a sweater." ;)

All joking aside, I understand what you mean about heating costs skyrocketing. At our house, we have a few months with bills (gas, electricity, water) totalling over $500.

Price controls isn't the answer - it promotes inefficient use of energy. Smart meters and better insulated homes (not sure how you get landlords to do this if the tenant is paying the utility bill) is the best solution.

Just some thoughts to continue the discussion.

Cheers, Derek

[SLN]

You're right about the price control thing, I was imprecise, really. What I *really* mean is that there should be some sort of monitoring and accountability in the energy sector. Obviously we are all presently footing the bill for a lack of the same in years past ... if this weren't true then what's with the 'debt recovery charge' on our bills?

I am all for better insulation and wiser energy usage, but I object to the regular joes ALWAYS being the ones to pick up the pieces. IE pay-per-bag garbage when the REAL culprits are the manufacturers. Have you tried to buy almost anything at the hardward store these days? What are they sealing into those packages, anyway? Pieces of the true cross? Ditto for the plethora of new snacks that are individually wrapped: Gum, teeny tiny yogurts, little baby cans of pringles, little baby cans of pepsi, cookies that are in a plastic tray within a plastic bag within a cardboard box. I feel the same way about having to deal with our supposed energy use... it isn't the citizenry who are the real abusers. We shouldn't have to jump through hoops to save .5 litres a week in toilet water. (for that matter, WHY do we water our gardens with TREATED water?)

As to the childcare debate. I believe that subsidised care IS the answer, and that its cost is more than justified, and I'lltell you why.

Care subsidies require that a person be working or going to school in order to qualify. Thus we will have no parents who 'just need some time off' getting freebies. (you want time off, call your sister to babysit.) Secondly, I believe that these subsidies should be on a sliding scale depending on income. It's only fair. If two incomes aren't really necessary in a home then let someone else have either the job or the subsidy.

If we go co-op instead then we've created a system of scheduling - I really shouldn't have to say more on this nightmarish spectre. I for one dont' need and couldn't handle another schedule. Not to mention that I may not be comfortable in leaving my kids with whoever's on duty on any given night, and then what? I get to roll the dice with my kid's safety or I miss a shift?

company sposored daycare is something that'll NEVER happen in Kingston unless we get big industry here. <I hear Aerosmith's "Dream On" in the background> Name me one company in this city that you think would install a daycare centre. Now tell me how many thousands of people work in businesses with under 20 employees. We're a government and service-industry town, sir. Even the military base doesn't sponsor childcare.

Here's a thought, though. The province and the feds could do parents a favour by allowing a tax write off for parents who stay at home with the kids. They could raise the basic personal deduction or they could do income-splitting between spouses. they could AT LEAST let parents continue to claim the full amount of childcare against their taxes rather than just a percentage.

Your turn. :)

[macphail]

Ok...my turn. ;)

Pay-per-throw: Love it. It encourages people to recycle more (I agree that manufacturers have to do a much better job about packaging), taking the burden off the shoulders of taxpayers who end up subsidizing people who don't do their share to reduce the amount that goes to landfill.

With upwards of 5 people in my household, we could easily put out just one bag of garbage each week (every other week if there are just the 3 of us). Given that my municipal taxes are $3,400, I'm pretty sure I'm paying more than my fair share for garbage collection.

Yes, there are some hurdles to clear with regards to people on lower and fixed incomes, but overall, a pay-per-throw - combined with an expanded blue box program - is one of the best routes to take.

Child Care:

1. There is the opportunity for employers in Kingston to band together to offer such a service, but the likelihood of this ever happening is next to nil, I agree.

2. I agree with your comment that a blanket system, where everyone is treated the same regardless of ability to pay, is not the answer. A national daycare program should not become a tool to give parents "time off" or reward those who can afford to pay their own way.

3. The tax credit thing: I'd have to massage my mind to think about this some more. ;) Isn't this similar to what Harper's Conservatives were suggesting?

Back to working around the house....my wife is calling!

Cheers, Derek

[SLN]

I'm amazed by people who could easily throw out a bag every other week. Not that I doubt you, mind you, but how do you manage it? Don't you have those cookie packages I described??? :) Parts of those are not recyclable. Don't you have chicken bones? Leftover potato salad? Things that can't sit around for more than a few days without getting stinky?

Many things are not recyclable. My way of making a living (not my JOB, I have no JOB per se) makes me prone to more than two bags a week, but usually I take my stuff directly to the dump, anyway.

enough out of me on that.

The conservatives under Clark were proposing the best ideas IMHO at the time of the second-last federal election. I haven't read the new Conservative's platform or policies. Harper scares me, naturally. I'm a feminist and advocate equal rights in marriage, so he was a no-go. Too bad, too, because I've been a member of the C's for a number of years.

[macphail]

How do we manage our garbage? Two full bins of recycling. Compost scraps go in the composter. If you get them out of the house soon enough, they don't stink or attract too many fruit flies.

Cookie bags? What are they? ;) Before the diet, the bags would find their way into the blue bin - all three pieces to them (outter bag, inner tray and the plastic covering it).

Chicken bones and such: That goes in the garbage, but to be honest, we eat mainly chicken breasts (boneless), chops (boneless) and boneless steaks. Do you see a trend? ;)

It would be interesting - in a weird kind of way - to analyze your garbage to see what it is composed of. NOTE: I am not offering to come over there and do it! lol

Ah...another person fearful of the Conservatives. I am pro-choice and pro-gay rights, but I don't for a second believe that Harper would take these rights away from Canadians. Yes, there are some Conservatives who hold these views and would be tempted to table a Bill, but then again, there are Liberals who hold the exact same views. Hopefully, when the Conservatives hold their policy convention this year, these two issues will be dealt with.

NOTE: If anyone wants to debate the above, please consider doing so in a different thread. As it is, SLN and I have gone off in enough directions!

Back to the yard.

Cheers, Derek

[macphail]

Too bad, too, because I've been a member of the C's for a number of years.

Have you been keeping an eye on the Provincial scene? Membership cut-off is August 7th (or maybe the 5th) for those interested in voting to elect the new leader of the Ontario PC's.

D.

[SLN]

I'm not sure if my membership is current or not. I went to the Delegate Conference or whatever it was in Toronto a couple of years ago. They behaved like a bunch of children, it was sad and I was kind of ashamed to be there.

[macphail]

I'm not sure if my membership is current or not. I went to the Delegate Conference or whatever it was in Toronto a couple of years ago.

You'd have to get a new membership by August 7th (e-mail from the John Tory team sent out as a reminder to folks) in order to vote.

Just as an FYI, John Tory will be in town for a luncheon this Friday, July 30th, from 12:00 - 1:30 at the Legion on Montreal Street. If you (or anyone) wishes to RSVP, please contact Wayne Snow 1-866-313-8679 ext. 106.

Cheers, Derek

[Emerald]

I would like to add a point on subsidized childcare. As taxpayers we will pay now or pay later - I prefer now. Thank you SLN and Derek for an interesting discussion.

[SLN]

emerald,

yay!!! someone else writing!!!

do you mean that you prefer to pay for childcare now as opposed to paying for the consequences of people not having had proper childcare later? Or do you mean that you'd rather people pay for their childcare now so that there will be no tax increases to cover the subsidy later?

[Lydia]

It's close to soul destroying. The shame, the cycle, the traps. the fact that most agencies and organizations have no clue where to direct a person who wants to get out off the system didn't help, but I'm pretty tenacious and found my way around.

Bravo, You are the person, the homeless people should be looking up to. Congratulations. You Did it.

They can too. We as a society should learn the been POOR IS NOT A CRIME. It is a state of being. We should teach people that the only thing NEEDED to be HAPPY truly is to have a roof over their heads and food in thier stomach, regardless of where that roof and food comes from.

If people have that then the only status in life is UP, because we are warm and feed. We have energy to become better of in life, if we so choose.
We seem to think that only the POOR are looked down on. So are the well-to-do. The only difference is that they have different issues to endure and live by.

Asking for help is not a CRIME or a SHAME, as long as you use that help to GET OFF WELFARE. The problem is that there is no government agency that helps you get off. That isn't the poor people's shame, it is our society's shame. It is a reflection of how we should be looked down on not the people.

I too came from a very poor environment. I too have been homeless as a child. I too had a very strong mother who pulled us up to become graduates of College and University. (us- meaning myself, brothers and sister)

I know what it is like to sleep on a floor without a bed. Been there done that. My mother was strong. proud and determined to be HAPPY.

[Lydia]

I would love to know WHY our government reps believe it is AGAINST OUR FREEDOM to allow social assistance cheques be given directly to Landlords for renting homes, apartments, etc.

If they did that, that is one less burden the poor would have to worry about. Also the people who would drink that cheque away would still have a place to live.

I think that there would be less homeless if that happened. The only thing then would be food. After that teaching people new skills would be a process to given people their pride back.

[macphail]

I would love to know WHY our government reps believe it is AGAINST OUR FREEDOM to allow social assistance cheques be given directly to Landlords for renting homes, apartments, etc.

The City of Kingston is looking at changes that would allow social service cheques for rent to be paid directly to private landlords if the recipient of the assistance requests it.

The problem isn't neccessarily the fault of politicians, but rather the old belief that such a move would take away the responsibility and dignity of those receiving benefits. That mind set has slowly been changing as the problem with homelessness has grown. So long as it is the choice of the recipient, I don't see the harm to the individual.

As an FYI, the above plan was advocated by the Kingston Social Planning Council in consultation with area stakeholders, including homeless youths and private landlords.

Cheers, Derek

[Lydia]

The problem isn't neccessarily the fault of politicians, but rather the old belief that such a move would take away the responsibility and dignity of those receiving benefits. That mind set has slowly been changing as the problem with homelessness has grown. So long as it is the choice of the recipient, I don't see the harm to the individual.

I personally think that it should NOT be a choice at all. I think it should be the same as health benefits to the welfare people. Paid directly to the landlords who are renting to people on welfare.

The problem has always been that it was a choice. Not all, but quite a few people have mis-used this benefit. Taking the decision away from them about paying for rent frees them to worry, stress, or plan for other things so that they can move up the ladder, so to speak.

Again saying that they should have a choice in it, because it might make they feel undignified is stupid. Like i said been poor is not a SHAME. It is a condition which can be changed at any moment in time. It has never been a reflection of a person's worth.

Lazyiness, is a reflection of a person's worth. These days, that does not resemble the majority of peopne on welfare.

The reason i am so strong on that attitude is this. I have relatives who miss used the welfare system as it is set up at the present moment. I resent the fact that there isn't help out there that will help people realize their worth isn't in been poor.

If you have 2 legs, 2 ears, 2 hands, a mouth, and you are not sick, There will always be a way up. Trying encouraging people to consentrate on what matters, education, place to live, and food in their bellies. The rest will come.

After all, does it matter what possessions you have? You can't take them with you when you die. Do you really want to be the richest person in a gravy yard. Or do you wish to be happy with what you OWN and try to get more out of life?

[Emerald]

sln
the money spent now will hopefully mean that we don't have to bear the consequences of poorly developed children ( from iinadequate childcare or lack of socialization) later. Is this a too optimitic view? I notice a great difference in children who have been in organized daycare and those who haven't. The former are much better socialized - the downside is that they seem to lack the ability to be alone - but that is just picky, picky picky.

[macphail]

the money spent now will hopefully mean that we don't have to bear the consequences of poorly developed children ( from inadequate childcare or lack of socialization) later.

Perhaps my lack of appreciation on this subject stems from the fact that I never attended daycare (although I consider the public system primary school to be very close). [tongue-in-cheek humour]

I think it is important that any national/provincial daycare program focus on meeting certain needs, that being for those parents who must have childcare in order to earn a decent living.

Cheers, Derek

[SLN]

Lydia -

I think the problem with paying the landlords directly would be that the government would then have to admit that what they give out each month isn't even close to enough. I advocate for your plan, don't get me wrong, but the amounts for people on disability and old age security should probably be upped. As for welfare - I survived as the parent of one child on $985 per month in 1994. This seems to me like it would still be enough provided that utilities were included in the rent. And finally, as to the childless people on welfare, their $547 (approx) should also be anough if they have a roommate. (But I can't really see why a childless person would ever be on welfare, except for very very short periods)


Emerald,

I agree. :) No, it isn't too optimistic at all. And by the way my daughter was in day care from the time she was two and she can be alone. Today was a prime example of that, in fact. (So much so that I missed her!)

Macphail,

you've changed your tune then? I thought you didn't like funded daycare.

[macphail]

you've changed your tune then? I thought you didn't like funded daycare.

Not completely.

I have a problem with funding for programs where people can afford to pay for the service themselves. When it comes to families that truly need the help, a daycare program that is funded by taxpayers makes sense. Frankly, it is either daycare or the parents are forced to stay at home and collect assistance in some instances. In that respect, government funded daycare is an extention of social assistance (or an addition for those who are not eligible for social assistance but qualify based on income).

My preference is not to be paying for someone else to drop little Johnny off for the day so that mom and dad can both work to afford a new Volvo. But as I said above, I do believe in helping out those who truly need it.

At the same time, I think people have to accept greater responsibility for their actions and not expect taxpayers to foot the bill. How did our parents and grandparents ever survive without national daycare, medicare, EI and other social programs?

Somewhere, we will have to draw the line in terms of government funded social programs. Canadians keep asking for more and more it seems. After national daycare, what will be the next thing Canadians expect governments to provide them with? Are Canadians becoming more reliable on governments for support and taking less responsibility for themselves?

Cheers, Derek

[Lydia]

Hurray, SLN We have a convert to our way of thinking. Welcome to our point of view Derek. You now have the said what SLN and I are trying to say. You said it beautifully.

I resent paying people for daycare when it ONLY means an extra VOlVO or anything else.

I Agree with HELPING people until they can help themselves. Just like the rest of us have done so.

:) :) :)

[macphail]

Hurray, SLN We have a convert to our way of thinking. Welcome to our point of view Derek.

I am not a convert...just clarifying my point. ;)

Cheers, Derek

[ptech]

Rent given directly to the Landlord. Boy I'm really torn on that one Lydia.

As a young 18yr old in the military years ago, we paid rent on our room in the barracks and for the food we ate at the mess hall.
This was deducted directly out of our paychecks. Never had to worry about a place to sleep or food it was all done for us. So if you gambled or drank your paycheck away before next pay. Oh well.
But you still had a bed to sleep in and food in your stomach.

On the other hand when the time came and I moved off base into my own apartment I had no idea how to pay rent and go out and buy my own food.
I needed to learn this skill at a later time. I joined up while still living at home with my parents so I never had to do it.

I don't think all poor people need training in how to budget their money.
What they need is enough money every month to budget. Whether it be from a job or assistance.


TTFN
ptech

[Lydia]

I don't think all poor people need training in how to budget their money.
What they need is enough money every month to budget. Whether it be from a job or assistance.

You are correct on this Ptech. I agree full with that statement.

My point is that it isn't a SHAME to be what people call POOR. It is only a label and a condition that can change at time.

I am saying that WHEN you have a roof over your head and food in your stomach, you have the necessities of life. Anythine else is a ""WANT". I want a new car, I want designer's cloths, I want a mansion to live in, etc etc. I WANT better job etc. All that can be achieved depending on how you choose to live your lives and what your ""God" "Higher Power" wants for you. Be happy with you have now and work towards the other things, if you really want them.

As for budgets, :p :p I certainly hope you know how now??? lol lol I'm teasing you. You have shown that people really should show youngers how to manage or budget money right from when you were a child. You would be surprised how children can manage play money if they are taught how.

If we can have your kids sell lemon-aid on the corner of your lawn. Of course ONLY UNDER AN ADULT'S SUPERVISION. Let them buy some candy to sell. Let them sell cakes that the adults make for them. Then kids can learn a life lesson. How to manage and make money.

I had my first store at the age of 5. My son and daughter did that at the age of 7. Infact a great little store can be constructed with ordinary Tissue Boxes that you get at Loblaws (if you ask for them) to keep kids out of the sun. My son's cardboard store actually was given to other kids on the street for their sales. It was great.

Want to get a cardboard store started in your neighbourhood, PTECh? Ill even show you how. :D :D

[macphail]

I don't think all poor people need training in how to budget their money.

That is why it would be optional - the individual can decide if this is what they want to do.

Cheers, Derek

[SLN]

There are a couple of "I needs" that social assistance considers to be "I wants". Telephone service comes to mind.

[ptech]

Thanks SLN I was thinking the same thing.
I believe there's a number of gray areas when it comes to needs and wants.

Wanting and needing a car comes to mind. These days having a car could very well be a need with many types of employment or just living outside of city limits. And without enough funds to maintain or keep a car. Your just SOL.

I didn't realize that if you cancel your car insurance for more then 30 days your insurance company can have you paying the max when you reapply.

So having to give up and then reaquire transportation again can become very costly.

If you think cancelling your insurance for a period of time while times are tough to save money appears to be sound budgeting, think again.



TTFN
GS

[SLN]

yes, you're right about that.

I personally list insurance as one of the greatest contributors to the increase in the cost of living AND one of the greatest evils of human history.

[macphail]

I personally list insurance as one of the greatest contributors to the increase in the cost of living AND one of the greatest evils of human history.

Funny. I was thinking that about politicians (especially current ones). ;)

D.

[ptech]

Well it looks as if two more employers are abandoning the Kingston area. Bombardier and MTO. MTO telling effected employees, either move to Toronto Thunder Bay or else where on 30 days notice or resign. COME ON!

More people either out of work or having to take very low paying jobs in an already tight Kingston job market.
Cant really see how many are going to be able to maintain their current life style with this substantial loss of revenue.

Current local housing construction appears to be higher valued homes and high rent apartment buildings.

I recall a trip to Florida in the 60s. It was quit a eye opening experience witnessing share croppers in their make shift cabins.

Just wondering? maybe the city should turn a blind eye to a couple of shanty towns. People could start squatting on some of this disputed property in and around Kingston. It may be the affordable way to go.

[nstn]

A number of affordable housing providers in Kingston are reporting on the growing number of working people who can no longer afford many of the housing or apartments available in the private market. Housing available within the budget limits of many people is in extremely limited supply.

This is a disturbing trend as more and more people are being priced out of the market. The situation is even worse for those on low fixed incomes. There are long waiting lists for the few homes that become available with assisted rents. More and more folks are now on the edge of potential homelessness.

[SLN]

There is no doubt that there is a shortage of well-paid jobs in Kingston. And, like ptech pointed out the list is getting shorter.

But I maintain that the market will correct itself. All these 'expensive' units for sale or rent will have to come down in price. Since the beginning of 2003 I've not understood the prices of real estate in Kingston. In my opinion nothing had changed but all of a sudden the costs of units went WAY up. Low interest rates and a growing national economy are factors in the boom in general but OUR economy hasn't changed for the better.

The only thing I can think is that investors from outside the city are buying up rental properties and more people are moving their savings from mutual funds, GICs and the like into real estate.

In time the prices will come down. In the short term people might have to share housing costs with roommates. It isn't the end of the world.

[ptech]

Older pensioned workers and people holding two well paying jobs.
I'll probley change my tune when i'm older but as it stands right now this tends to bother me somewhat.

Example. I work occassionly with a fellow who's collecting a military pension,
a 32 year retirerment pension from Dupont, CPP and old age pension.
On top of this he is working 40 hours a week at $12.50 hour. He likes to point out he's bringing in 3000+ a month. This man is 74.

A lady friend of mine, works as a director of a building at Queen's with a very substantial paycheck at the end of the month. She also holds a part time job at A&P as a cashier at 17+ dollars at close to 20 hours a week.

Even having just one well paying part time job would be enough for one person to help make ends meet, although this oppertunity is lost through people occupying multiple high paying jobs or otherwise supplimenting a livible pension holding jobs that someone without a pension or adequit income could be employed in.

I have the pleasure working alongside a number of older folks 60 70+ who believed they'd be relaxing at home at this time in their lives. Unfortunitly this is not the case, as they find themselfs without adequit income to provide for the basics. Food and shelter. And therefore, MUST work rather then WANT to work.

Again as I age i'm sure my opinion on this pet peeve my very well change.
But for now I view it as lost oppurtunity for those without a suitable income.

[Lydia]

I agree with you complete Ptech.

These seniors who work ONLY FOR MORE MONEY are the problem with society today. They probably were losers in their early years and are trying to make up more money today.

I have 2 mottos: "Do you really want to be the richest man in the graveyard?
and "If you have not made your millions by the age of 55, you probably won't later either."

Time for the younger folks (16 to 55) complain to the Liberals that the idea of allowing seniors NOT TO RETIRE is bad for the economy. That would place more young people on the WELFARE LIST AND HOMELESS LIST.

For the seniors WHO HAVE TO WORK IN ORDER TO LIVE. The government should be MADE to INSURE that anyone of retirement age should have enough money to have a place to live, food in their stomachs, and medical help. OOps i forgot we called that Social Assistance at one time.

Good for you Ptech. You are Completely correct in your thinking.
P.S. I am a senior at the age of 58 and retired. I want young people to earn livings. I get my net work in knowning that I contribute to my society. CALLED VOLUNTEERING AND WORKING ON CAUSES THAT BETTER SOCIETY. After all I am retired. :D :D :D :D

Oh yes, for the genius who are completely GREEDY, Just remember how the Eaton's Brothers screwed their father's company and society. Think about how the McCain Brother's have destroyed their families and society as wel. Big Deal.

Ptech, Don't be upset with what OTHERS ARE MAKING. Just remember usually the more you make the more Taxes you SHOULD pay. However, ALWAYS STRIVE TO IMPROVE YOUR OWN WAGES. Just ask for the wages you think you are worth. Live accordingly.

[SLN]

I am happy that this discussion has been brought up. I actually wrote a piece for the Whig a few months back which I had called "50 is the New 30?" after two things happened - first Oprah turned fifty and made the declaration I titled my piece after and then the liberal government made noise about changing the retirement age.

The story didn't get printed of course because it was what some MIGHT call offensive.

I totally agree with the ptech's position, and Lydia's as well. If you are getting a good pension you should let some of the younger generation find and have the better jobs OR, if you still want to work, defer your pension. I know people who get DISABILITY pensions from the government from their time in the military and now work for civilian companies that are hired by the military and they make upwards of $50,000 a year. That's just not right.

You'd think the government itself would have a group looking for this sort of fraud- you know insurance companies would revoke a person's disability pay for the in a heartbeat. And whY? Because those people are cheats and they cost all of society in more ways than one.

[Lydia]

Thanks SLN, It is good to learn that my opinion isn't out of date on this. :)

Some might call offensive are the Senior 2 job wonders. :)

I really like what Bell Canada has done with their retirees. If you retire from them, you can return back to work if you so choose, HOWEVER, you are not going to receive a RETIREMENT PENSION CHEQUE AS WELL.

How that I would love to see happen to every business field. Hum :confused: :confused: :confused: I wonder how many of these 2 job wonders would work then????? :D :D :D

[SLN]

Probably none of them would work. I didn't know Bell did that, but our government should follow suit.

[ptech]

I see in todays Whig, Smokey Thomas was interviewed regarding the number of provicial jobs lost . 400 over the last few years apparently.

Although they seem to be replaced with a number of call centre positions.
Pay I think starts at $10 hour.

Thats a big decline from $40k plus to $19k a year. I'm basing that on a 40 hour work week. Not really sure if they get that many hours though.

Many jobs seem to be going part time and many are contracted positions. CORCAN comes to mind. No benifits, no staff to administer the employees. The CORCAN transport driver and maintenance workers are contractors working exclusivly for Corrections. Corrections pays them directly for the job and hours worked and they inturn are required to look after paying their own tax, EI, CPP etc.

I recall a few of the grociery stores a few years ago closed down only to reopen as a Food Basics or No Frills. I believe getting rid of the union and paying employees substantily less.

[SLN]

I am on the fence about unions. The grocery store thing is a good example:

On the one hand you have the unionized places where some cashiers get over $18.00 an hour. These people should be working somewhere where they get to use their brains and won't get repetitive stress disorder. Plus, The groceries there are WAY expensive.

On the other hand you have non-unionized places where the staff gets paid substantially less but the food is less costly by a good percentage.

Everyone needs food and it is better for those of us who aren't making big money if there are places where we can get it within our budgets - therefore non-union shops are better for us. further, it is my opinion that those types of jobs are best suited to students, young people, semi-retired people or people who are working just to supplement their spouse's income. No one should make a career of being a cashier.

However, the reality is that many people (in cities like this one) HAVE to work as a cashier or other such job. Since they have so very few other options, they should be treated with dignity - better pay, sick leave, benefits, etc.

like I said I see both sides. Buzz Hargrove may very well be the devil, however.

[ptech]

SLN.

Unions Humm.
I'm working for a company where there's grumblings going on about unionizing here in Kingston. We have 17 seperate autonomous (hope I spelled that right?) not for profit divisions across Canada. The Kingston Division covers Peterbourgh to Cornwall. Kingston to Smithfalls. We have roughly 800 hundred employees in the Kingston area.

PSAC represents employees in BC, Nova Scotia, Quebec, Hamilton, Toronto, North Bay and a growing number of other places across the province.
Kingston is not yet on the list but many here are torn between
union or non-union. We debate amongst ourselves about having a living wage and fair representation for the worker. Will PSAC be able to do this, or will we lose contracts and drive business away being worse off then we are already.

I myself feel our employees are not treated in a fair manner and would welcome at lest a third party arbatrator to deal with disputes between management and the employee rather then belong to a union.
I ended up working 16 hours the other day from 6:30 in the morning to 11:00 that night.
The next day my boss commented the contactor should have their ass kicked for not considering we were contracted to be on site for 12hrs.
I believe labour law requires a permit for work over 12hrs.
This wasn't the first time this has happened, and i'm sure it wont be the last. No reprecusions for the contractor. An I'm sorry to have had you standing here for 16 hours without a break would have helped. We got a call from the contractors cell phone, he was on his way home when he gave us the OK for us to leave.

Traditonaly the work we do is low paying to begin with. And I believe our wages are alittle higher then other similiar businesses.
But that wage is well below what one can reasonibly live on.
Although our managers try to be as fair as possible, they must keep the best interests of the organization in mind when it comes to resolving disputes between employees and the clients we serve.
Due to the nature of work we do, the employee is subjected to abuse (verbal and sometimes visical) by the clients employees and the general public in carrying out client (management) duties.

It seems regardless of the situation or the quick decisions we are required to make, (much of the time on the spot) we are always in the wrong as the client is always right.(even if the boss agrees with our decision. Upset the client lose business) We can be removed from a site on a whim , resulting in loss of pay and going from full time to part or casual until and if another full time simular position becomes available.

Many are living on the edge, on EI. or just getting by with very few hours every month. While others, who seem to be the chosen few get the better paying jobs, full daytime work instead of shifts parttime casual. And always seem to quickly move into other non-advertised well paying jobs if they lose their current position.

Will a union help or hinder us?. I too am torn between Unions SLN.

So ends this rant. Thanks for reading.