Memorial Centre - A New arena?

[Bandit]

The Whig Standard called a new arena one of the top issues of the election, and a number of candidates have put building a new arena on their platform, although I haven't seen any mention the cost or how it would be paid for.

A new arena would cost $25-30+ million and is unlikely to be profitable based on other city's experiences.

Should the city build a new arena?

[nstn]

We all too often become fixated on building new projects - the so called 'edifice complex'.

In the case of the Memorial Centre, a sensitive rehabilitation of the building and historic fair grounds would seem more appropriate. Such work could occur over a number of years to spread out the cost.

A good start to such a project would be a public meeting followed by the development of a draft master plan for the site. Further public consultation could take place on the issues of usage, design and costs.

Rehabilitation of the Memorial Centre would seem to be a better expenditure of public funds than the micro skating rink proposed for Market Square behind City Hall.

[Bandit]

Rehabilitation of the Memorial Centre would seem to be a better expenditure of public funds than the micro skating rink proposed for Market Square behind City Hall.

Yes, but unfortunately it looks like we are going to start down the new arena path before the powers that be get a reality check on the money pits other cities are saddled with.

I was surprised to see councillor Foster mention the Corel center as an example...We can only pray our council doesn't get us into a partnership even close to that financial disaster that has seen everyone involved take a financial bath :rolleyes:

[Florence]

Just a note of frustration on the Memorial Centre. This institution has been a terrible neighbour. Absolute lack of sensitivity to the surroundings - no attempt to make the site look good - garbage all over the place. I like NSTN's thoughts on this.

[Alan_Cohen]

Anyone who goes to my campaign site will automatically see that I am for a new stadium.

The location should be closer to the 401, possibly on Alcan's land at counter and John A. or just south of the 401 itself at John A. and Dalton. The location will mean easier access to all events, as adequate parking will be made available. Also it would be within walking distance from the Bus Depot and CN Station.

Being visible from the 401 will give it added value to corporations who of course would want the visible contact from traffic travelling the 401 east or west bound.

The cost of a new facility would be more in the range of $75 - $90 million. No need to scream where's the money, because those details need to be worked out. Remember one thing, corporate partnerships are a great way to give the people of Kingston something to be proud of.

As for the Corel Center, the real problem with that location, is the location. It is almost 30 minutes drive from downtown Ottawa and located in the middle of nowhere. But you will notice it is on the Queensway for easy access from the highway.

As for the present location of the Memorial Center, there is no better place than this to build what many want in Kingston, and that is affordable housing.

Sincerely yours,
Alan Cohen
Candidate for Mayor of Kingston

Stand up and be Counted!
http://www.alan4mayor.com
For CHANGE there is only ONE Choice

[Bandit]

"The cost of a new facility would be more in the range of $75 - $90 million. No need to scream where's the money, because those details need to be worked out. Remember one thing, corporate partnerships are a great way to give the people of Kingston something to be proud of"

What kind of arena do you want to build??? Other OHL cities have built arenas in the past few years with the total cost not even close to that. Even with costs at $30Million or less, the financial performance hasn't been pretty with cost overruns and revenue far below expectations. Cleary most of the money and all of the risk would be comming from taxpayers.

Checkout Guelph's partnership with Nustadia who Kingston almost got involved with as one example. Others are Brantford and Mississauga. There's a reason teams like the Frontenac's whine to the city for a new arena but don't want to be involved themselves.

The corel centre's problems were a lot more then location for a facility that lost towards a $100 Million over a decade and was sold for 90% below it's $225 Million capital cost. kingston involved with an arena that performed proportionately similar would be an absolute disaster. "no need to worry where the money will come from" - that is the biggest problem with present council and most challenging candidates, everything is about where the money will come form!

[Alan_Cohen]

As I had mentioned no need to scream about costs, as this is a major project, which needs to be fully thought out before making hasty decisions.

The $30 million jobs you are referring to are facilities with under 6,000 seats I believe. You specify "OHL cities" Why only think that? Isn't Kingston more to us than just an OHL city? But we all have to remember that these facilities you are mostly referring to are located in what many call suburbs of the “big” city [Toronto].

These locations will never benefit from any major events because they are mostly within 45-60 minutes of Copps in Hamilton and the ACC in Toronto. Kingston does not have this luxury and would need a facility to host events that would require larger attendance.

As I mentioned until we see what corporations want to get involved and what they are willing to offer. As well as how much funding we can get from the Provincial and Federal Governments, there is no need to second guess and compare.

This project can only be done, if it is the right deal for Kingston and the people of Kingston. There will be hopefully no wasted spending from the next council. We have all seen the disasters that have happened without logic thinking being done.

If the numbers do not add up to benefit the city then hey, the stadium will need to wait until it can be done to benefit the city.


Sincerely yours,
Alan Cohen
Candidate for Mayor of Kingston

Stand up and be Counted!
http://www.alan4mayor.com
For CHANGE there is only ONE Choice

[Alan_Cohen]

Poll questions can sometimes take the wrong meaning. Perhaps the questions should be changed;

Instead of
"Should Kingston build a new arena?"

It should possibly read,
"Should Kingston research the plans to build a new arena?"

The results may be slightly different, considering people on this forum are basing their votes on the fact that presently the city has little funds available for major projects.

Sincerely yours,
Alan Cohen
Candidate for Mayor of Kingston

Stand up and be Counted!
http://www.alan4mayor.com
For CHANGE there is only ONE Choice

[Bandit]

Surely you don't think an arena over the 6,000 seat range will ever be remotely considered for Kingston?

Guelph put around $11 Million upfront, plus...

ight The Guelph Tribune 2002)

It's no wonder that Coun. Rocco Furfaro got a little hot under the collar at Monday's council meeting when Nustadia vice-president Ben Sproule presented his report on the facility to council. In fact, the only surprising thing was that the rest of council sat on their hands while the Nustadia vice-president told them the bad news.

City taxpayers are paying over $750,000 a year for four years to help Nustadia with its difficulties operating the Guelph Sports and Entertainment Centre. That's on top of other money the city is financing for the building of the centre and also on top of the tens of thousands of dollars a month in life-support payments it has been making to keep a heartbeat in the barren Guelph Centre mall, which the city bought as part of the arena deal.

Sproule stood in front of council and presented a report that indicates Nustadia has made virtually no progress since last summer in increasing revenue at the arena.

In fact, he went so far as to suggest that Nustadia might be coming back before council asking for up to $80,000 to make up for sales shortfalls in the food and beverage sector. All this from a partnership that was never supposed to see the city incur any of the operating losses the arena might incur.

Nustadia was supposed to have leased out the food and beverage rights to a third party by now. They should have sold the name to the place by now. They need to have sold more private boxes and club seats by now. They should have brought in more non-hockey-related bookings by now. Instead, all we've got to show for their efforts lately is Travis Tritt, Wayne Newton, some sniffs from potential buyers to the naming rights and a couple of seat license sales.

We can be thankful the Guelph Storm is having a good season and was successful in winning its bid for the Memorial Cup this spring, or the Nustadia financial picture would be even bleaker.

Furfaro has maintained all along that Nustadia wouldn't be around to run the place in five years. He might just be right.

[macphail]

Originally posted by nstn
A good start to such a project would be a public meeting followed by the development of a draft master plan for the site. Further public consultation could take place on the issues of usage, design and costs.

For some reason, the thoughts and experiences with Block D come racing to mind.

Cheers, Derek

[nstn]

The comparison of the Memorial Centre to Block D with respect to the planning process is interesting. But one of the largest problems with Block D 'planning' is that seemed to come with a great deal of old baggage and preconceived ideas with respect to the development of the site. Community consultation was essentially a like it or lump it exercise.

In the case of the Memorial Centre, a slower, more public process needs to be used. Plans need to be well thought out and the work scheduled in phases to match public priorities and the availabilty of funding.

[Alan_Cohen]

Depending on how severe Hurricane Isabel will hit Kingston. We may have no choice but tear it down.

With the openings in the roof, the wind [depending on strength] could send pieces into neighbouring homes. Either way the home opener may have the front headlines in many cities stating;

"Frontenacs Home Opener Rained Out" :mad:

Sincerely yours,
Alan Cohen
Candidate for Mayor of Kingston

Stand up and be Counted!
http://www.alan4mayor.com
For CHANGE there is only ONE Choice

[Bandit]

While she felt the city needed a new arena, Donovan cautioned against striking a public-private partnership to build it.

Public-private partnerships may have worked in a few Ontario communities, she said, but they have been disastrous in others.

Places like Cambridge, London and Brantford all ended up with crumbling facilities that eventually had to be bought out by the municipalities.

“The problem with public-private partnerships is that the private sector is interested in making money,” she said, adding companies often won’t pour money into maintenance if they’re not making money

Somehow I think the Whig and candidates will have forgotten that quote by tomorrow.


a study she concedes has such a narrow focus it will probably be useless

$50K for a useless study would have almost paid for the outdoor rinks!

[Alan_Cohen]

Originally posted by Bandit
“The problem with public-private partnerships is that the private sector is interested in making money,” she said, adding companies often won’t pour money into maintenance if they’re not making money

Somehow I think the Whig and candidates will have forgotten that quote by tomorrow.

$50K for a useless study would have almost paid for the outdoor rinks!

She also stated, correct me if I am wrong. That their study has nothing to do with building a new stadium, but only to focus on renovated existing arenas.

Therefore the money used for this study is indeed a useless spend, made by a council, that is out of touch with reality.

One has to wonder why council did not try and get both sides of the story and see the advantages to building a new one with private partnerships. It is a logical means based on the fact Kingston does not have the funds to do this on their own.

Where do we stand now?
The same place we were before the report.

Alan Cohen

[Bandit]

see the advantages to building a new one with private partnerships. It is a logical means based on the fact Kingston does not have the funds to do this on their own

Mmmmm...except as noted they've proven disasterous elsewhere :). Many of the newer ones, contrary to how the whig has reported on the "success", are headed down the same path. Not that fully publicly owned ones are any more of a success financially, just the notion that the public doesn't have to cough up the money with a "partnership" has consistently been wrong and the building of a new one shouldn't be sold on that basis. Arenas are money pits. I would support a new arena partnership bewteen Queen's/Frontenacs/Arena company though :). The $10+M minimum, unlikely best case scenario, the city would have to put up would go an awfully long way towards taking care of recreational facilities across the city for normal users.

[macphail]

I believe she stated that the purpose of the study was to determine ice needs, both now and in the future. The consultants will recommend a development/redevelopment plan, with my understanding that "development" means "new" facilities and "redevelopment" meaning the maintenance/upgrading of exisiting ice pads.

The question of "how" the facility would be paid for is not part of the scope of work being undertaken by the consultants. The decision regarding what to do with the report will be left to the City who will have to examine what it is able or willing to afford.

However, if the City does move forward and build a new Memorial Centre (perhaps with 2 ice pads???), there are other considerations it will have to take into account that are not a part of the current arena study. For example, would a new Memorial Centre provide other recreational facilities such as pools and/or a gymnasium? Could convention or meeting rooms be included? What about a new home for the Hockey Hall of Fame? Is there room to host local arts and culture initiatives?

As the consultant pointed out, the focus of their study is very narrow and does not fully take into account additional uses.

Cheers, Derek

[macphail]

* Harvy Rosen pledges to start construction on a new Memorial Centre before the next term of council comes to an end.

* Isabel Turner urges patience but added "no doubt that a new Memorial Centre will materialize, probably in the new council."

* Jeffrey Lowes, who favours a new arena at Railway and Division, says that "If I can find the money within the city, I would be happy to break ground within a year."

* Richard Moller promises to present to council within 18 months a plan for a new public-private partnership.

* Dave Meers wants to dust off an old proposal that called for a 5,500 seat, two rink arena, but he wants to wait until the arena study is completed before deciding on a course of action.

[macphail]

Just as an FYI, current seating capacity at the Memorial Centre is 3,079 (3,300 with standees).

Attendance at last nights game: Unknown at this time.

I was disappointed to find that the game wasn't sold out, especially since it was our (delayed) home opener.

Cheers, Derek

[Alan_Cohen]

The media is making the Memorial Centre the main attraction to this election. shovel in the ground before the end of next term should be accomplished.

The key will be to lay off of wanting committees and consultant groups. They only take up time.

Isabel wants patience, that is exactly how her three years in office was, so what makes any one think she would be different in round two.

Railway and Division is a vision, but the consenses will show that most will be interested in a location closer to the bus termainal and train station, as well as easy to access. Likely south of the 401 near John A. and Dalton makes more sense to me. Besides being visible from the 401 will give it more value.

I would hope that in 18 months all this discussion will be in the final stages. For Moller to present data half way through the term will mean. If elected the famous line of "I have jobs to finish" will be part of a re-election campaign.

The dusting off of Meer's plan is a twin ice pad 5,500 seat arena. since the location in his plan remains the same, it has that against it already.

In my opinion the present location should be low cost housing and parkland.

As well we need to focus of the reality that it is not just a new Memorial Centre to discuss. what else can a new facility bring to Kingston? There has been talk of a convention center, hotel, and we must as well think of new fairgrounds as the present facility should be changed as well.

Alan Cohen

[Bandit]

All mayoral candidates talking new arena...but not a single one mentioning what the cost will be or where the money will come from. Also no mention that just at last council Queen's said they would be interested in talking to the city about their proposed project.

"The key will be to lay off of wanting committees and consultant groups. They only take up time."

No, the key is to take the time to make sure a Kingston 2000 type project doesn't start, wasting piles of money on something that won't happen(or even worse proceeding with a bad deal). The major problems with the M centre are now fixed, there is no rush. If a new arena goes ahead it will be lived with for decades. It would be completely foolish to do anything before the study is complete and all options are considered.

A fairly major campaign screw up on day 1 for Rosen IMO. With the media coverage over the past few months all he had to do was be vague and mention "change" as often as possible. Now at least Turner has something to run on with "we don't want a board of control repeat of K2000"(I don't expect that to be enough to make a difference though).

[bill]

I do think that we should have a new arena, but can we afford it now or has previous politicians just not looked at kingston as a city and not a farming community. The game on Friday was not sold out............if we can not have sell out games, especially a home opener, then there obviously not enough interest to build a new one.........maby the owner of the fronts should build one on his own..and stop holding us hostage........As far as location, I think it should be close to the 401 ie sir john a where there is plenty of land and no residential neighborhoods.....But I think the city owes it to all the various communities to restore the arenas which are in terrible condition. Ie the wally elmer, which the presenter at the public meeting stated is now only good for roller blading.........the roof is apparently falling, urine flows into the showers from the bathroom........how can we treat citizens like that and only consider rinks for profit, where is humanity. The city held these meetings at a location that the citizens could not access by bus. There were comments from a previous councillor who sat next to meers and garrison who basically called the people in the north end scum...........we need to be human with everybody......

[Bandit]

Everyone knows the M centre is old, but the debate should not be build a new on yes or no, it should be how much can we afford and then what would be the best use of that amount of money. It appears no one talking about an arena beyond Morgan has considered what the cost will be or what the experience elsehwere has been. Everything has been left to "well do it as a partnership", when the reality of an arena partnership is the private arena operator is there to provide the expertise, not much of the money or assuming any of the risk.

From looking at the othes I assume at a bare minimum Kingston will be putting up$10-$12 million for a single pad facility, plus covering any losses if it underperforms projections. A deal with Queen's would probably be the only way to lower the City's contribution from that.

Now if the decision is being made to spend that kind of money to "advance the city", is an arena the best way to go? People talk about all these new events without ever mentioning numbers. Guelph's business plan, which hasn't been met, called for a mere 18 extra events annually beyond the hockey games. That's only a few concerts, done by the type of acts who have come to Kingston in the past. Does it make any difference what the building is like for things like a car shows or flea markets? We're not going to have a big city style car show that attracts tourists, a kingston car show is Taylor's moving the inventory to a different location. Each CJHL city can only expect the Memrorial cup once a century, and major curling events would be very rare.

I don't think the city's role should be to subsidize the Frontenac's and their $25,000 annual rent, less then the city would receive just renting the ice to local leagues! The city could add a new normal ice pad for only $3M(really less since it generates positive chas flow) and still have piles left for other things. Give Kedco the funds to increase the tax base and maybe someday an arena would be affordable. Spend some money on recreational facilites accessable to everyone, a fraction of an arena cost would do wonders. The skate park is being done by a community group raising half the funds with the other half provided by funds that were available to be spent on that particular park. What if the city put up some of the arena money as matching funds to any groups that wanted new low cost facilities and initiated a competition to make proposals and fund raise the other half for things like the outdoor rinks, skate parks in other areas, pathways, dog parks, playground equipment, field lights, etc. Huge numbers of thoughs things could be done across the city for a couple of million.

The arena proponents arguements are that an arena would aid tourism, employments and provide new entertainment. Consider that there are more people being entertained in the hub bars every Staurday night then go to an average Frontenacs game, a large bar employs far more people then are by the Frontenacs, far more tourists are attracted to Kingston for the bar scene then will be for anything happenning at the arena, and a bar would actually pay taxes as opposed to being a cash drain...the city would be better off giving Grieve the money to buid a new bar then building an arena! Of course that would be ridiculous to subsidize a bar owner, but why should a business hockey team be any different? The owner in the Sault has pledged $7M towards an arena, why isn't anyone calling on the Forntenacs to step up if an arena is such a good deal?

[Bandit]

Interesting that while arenas are at the top of 3/4 of candidates platforms the citizens ranked them 4th from the bottom in importance out of 28 municipal services. Only the airport, everyone's favorite parking enforcement, and swimming pools were ranked lower.

[Jeffrey Lowes]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bandit
[B]All mayoral candidates talking new arena...but not a single one mentioning what the cost will be or where the money will come from. Also no mention that just at last council Queen's said they would be interested in talking to the city about their proposed project.

1) Building of a Memorial SportsPlex

Dedicating the taxes from a developed Block D, and the redevelopment of the m-center property and land sale will leverage the funding. The 21.5 million @ 7% over 20 years, the taxes will cover the payments and renovate the existing community rinks. The surplus from the land sale, and the increases in taxes will add to the bottom line. Location of the new center will be at Railway and Division. The Wellington Street extension will connect to the downtown. I have been in touch with different people I know in the local and international banking community. If there were a P3 I would lose control over the development. Using the third party funding they will help keep the timelines in check. Most people are not concerned with the development of the Block D property, but if it is a means to get a new arena then they are all for it. The people blocking Block D will be considered holding up the new arena, Art's Centre and Seniors Health Centre.

2) Building an Art's Center

If we look just at the total amounts paid in rent by the organizations under the auspices of the Art Council and use that number as a base. We take this number at 70% to 80% of the face value, as the amount of a mortgage payment. The City would use its credit to support the borrowing of the leveraged amount. This would allow the building of an Art based market in the downtown core, and an arts center without going into the tax base. The divesting of the Grand Theatre from the City of Kingston's council control will combine with the centers to spur the development of the arts within the community. This would also end the Council's micro-management of the Grand! Funding for the arts will have a base line of $500 000. This will be capital funding to leverage grants from the federal and provincial governments, since most grant programs require base funds. This will be from the tax base.

3) Building of a Seniors Health Centre

The building of a Seniors Association Primary Health Care and Wellness Centre was proposed by the Seniors Association in June 2002. The former (Provincial Conservative) Health Minister turned down the idea. There was a lot of work put into this proposal. I would support it with financial incorporation with the province. Since I am running a zero-based budget, not spending till I have the money.


http://www.kingstonelectors.ca/jefferylowes.php

Thanks for your vote of confidence.

Jeffrey P. Lowes
Candidate for Mayor
For A Better City!

254 Sydenham Street
Kingston ON
K7K 3M5

613.531.0508

[email]jplowes@cogeco.ca

[macphail]

Property taxes from the development of Block D wouldn't be realized until several years down the road (tax reductions for remediating a brownfield).

Cheers, Derek

[Jeffrey Lowes]

To build the complete Memorial Centre would take about 18 months; Block D would be 12 to 24 months. Taxes from the redeveloped M Centre property would be 36 months. Key to financing the New Memorial Centre would be in the repayment timings. User fees and the rental of retail space in the Centre would cover operational expenses

Thanks for your vote of confidence.

Jeffrey P. Lowes
Candidate for Mayor
For A Better City!

254 Sydenham Street
Kingston ON
K7K 3M5

613.531.0508

jplowes@cogeco.ca

[Bandit]

The proposed block D plan also ties initial tax revenue to paying back the cost of aquiring the public space on the site.

[Bandit]

Sault

The tab for a new downtown arena will be in the neighborhood of $22 million with $7.4 million committed by both governments and $7 million from the city. The remaining $7 million has to come from the public, either in the form of a private investor or a private operator.

Working with a Toronto firm, the city prefers a new arena on the same site with seating to accommodate 4,500 complete with more leg room for patrons, new seats and hand rails.



Somewhat of a reality check for the promises and proposals being thrown around here that have included seating up to 20,000 and having a plan within 100 days. The Sault doesn't have a firm plan an entire year after hiring a consultant for $100,000. A year and a half ago, long before budget troubles were revealed, they got combined commitments from both upper levels for only 1/3 of the cost up to $7.4M. Unlike here their team ownership has also talked about investing in the arena, and the city gets millions from slot revenue.

Yet here we still get leading candidates making statements suggesting they will find some magic way that no other city has found that will pay for it and move ahead almost immediatly.

[bill]

Well it looks like Cataraqui will not get an arena again.........Mr. Meers messed up, we will see if his daughter will or not...........but I should not have to drive downtown to take my kids to the ice.