Jason's View - City Council, January 19, 2010

[posting]

City Council Meeting, January 19, 2010

Jason here. Just when you have almost given up on Council you hear a debate the way it should be. Last night at around 11pm on a motion regarding the Poker Run there was the beginning of a very good examination of Kingston as the ‘sustainable city’. The four pillars of the policy are economic, environmental, social and cultural. It is clear that the Poker Run is hated by many, not so much for the environmental impact but as a symbol of ‘white men with lots of money throwing their weight around’. But the debate about the environmental impact got things rolling. If the city is to live up to its sustainable label then as Dorothy Hector so correctly pointed out everything the city does has to be looked at through the same lens. Councillor Smith was also correct when asking for some input on the economic impact of the Run. But most interesting was the question of ‘carbon offsets’ The market for offsets is voluntary and non-regulated and there are no government standards, so dealing with the organizers of the Poker Run to get them to purchase carbon offsets will be a challenge. Good luck on that one. As Councillor Foster pointed out, if the Run is shut down in Kingston, it will simply go somewhere else. So this approach is a compromise. It could also be groundbreaking and set the agenda for future discussions. Kingston is changing and the debate last night was an indication of exactly how it is changing.

Also last night Council gave their support to the bid for the Memorial Cup – not without some groaning about the poor performance of the Frontenacs. One wonders what the ‘environmental impact ‘ of the Memorial Cup might be. Just an example of how difficult environmental equations are. Where on earth do you start adding impact and how do you subtract (if that is what you do) the economic gain? We will have to elect Councillors with big brains. Perhaps we should insist on IQ tests as a qualification.

Watch this one, it is going to change your future. But one request – please debate interesting stuff early in the evening instead of later when watchers are begging for sleep.

[run2010]

A few years back i did take the Mensa test for the fun of it. I am happy to say that it was 3 digits. (127)

Have to have some fun :)

[run2010]

I am stuned about the "rich white male " comment.:eek:

[Dogma]

run2010 - I hope that council next time, will have a little less greeny agenda..& filler concerns such as banning Pesticides, Poker Runs and anything to do with shutting down businesses in the area. I would suggest you maybe interested to balance the needs of the community going forward.

[run2010]

I may at time sound anti - green. Just like most people i believe in recycling, not polluting, etc. However, there are some people that can not find a balance. You can be green all you want. But in order to "sustain" economically we need another green. It amazes me that they are throwing jobs away. I had one person (not a counciler) say that its just a few days of job loss. Some people may need thos efew days to make rent.
Glad we are seeing thing the same way Dogma

[Lydia]

I am against Environmentists who try to use their scientific knowledge to scare people into their way of think.

1: How many people actually are willing to take care of animal life that are in their own back yards.
2: How many people actually PULL WEEDS by hand but still want pesticides to be available to them if needed
3: How many people actually lived in a rural environmental neighbourhood.
4: How many people understand the difference between clear cutting and the idea of maintaining of a healthy forest
5: How many people believe strongly in supporting local farmers
6: How many people are willing to stop wasting money on products that they know will be thrown out instead of being fixed to last longer in their homes
7: How many people do not believe in purchasing products that are NOT needed.

Well I guess that does not making you an environmentalist but it sure isn't a GREEN policy supporter who believes in BANS

When politicans stop using scare tactics to support their own ideas and use the excuse that "YOU NEED TO FORCE people to do the what is right" I will be the first one to call them on it.

These politicans are ""RIGHT FIGHTERS"" and bully us into doing things their ways.

I am not a Green Party supporter but I am a naturalist= person who believes that NATURE is important and who believes in protecting it.

[Dogma]

Run2010 - I agree with you.

There must be a "rational" balance of "sustainability". Going forward.

I have no issue in sustainable ways of doing things. Like you I try every day.

In fact, I would suggest we need to use less energy, less packaging, less cars, and less population and ...and find our way back to simpler times. Or find the "right balance of sustainability", through less stuff.

I think the environmental lobbies, or politicians that Lydia blames, are not necessarily the foundation of ban's, or changes required in our current lifestyle/habits. Sure some come from a militant "eco" perspective, such as SPLASH.

But, many groups of lobbiest of enviro -"ideology" basically because of the loss of control of so many things they believe in, and we now have better ormore information about environmental issues i.e of how we have over consumed our lives, Corporate consumer domination, and no security in many peoples work.

This was unheard of a generation ago!

Its no wonder people (groups) are aggresively hanging onto their "beliefs".

Example: I see organic foods now that are now "mainstream", even though most "lines" get commercialized, or mass produced, now such as Loblaws organic line. It must frustrate the heck out of the real "greenies", mass produced, packaged and marketed mainstream organics!

(I do not by from Loblaws to main stream.)

But many "boomers"/people who nature/environment to "them" per say, are only (and have always been) cottages and motor boats, for their "outdoor experience", it does not surprise me "the greenies" are frustrated by such simple minded lifestyles.

I certainly agree society uses way to much raw materials, plastics nd alike and frankly North American's in particular have been rather lazy and resistant to changing their lifestyle habits,

it make me want to ban them from the planet. When I see such wasteful lifestyles.

Again, I do not blame folks not liking the poker run, Casio's or these rather "marginal social-economic" enterprises.

What we want is real investment.

Let Kingston get the Samsung Manufacturing plant for wind turbine parts, or investment (re) into current businesses such as Invista or Novelis.

Let us "sustain" what Kingston has and grow towards real well paying jobs, not "service industry" jobs that the poker run "may support", that are marginal paying, high turn over... and the poker run and the Casino are certainly not examples of... contributing to high paying, socially responsible "sustainable" long term jobs.

Run2010 - I hope you will reach higher than that?

[run2010]

I would love high paying jobs as a top priority. However, I would not turn down sometime that is not higher paying. A friend of mine that was homeless for almost 2 years agrees with me when saying a lower paying job is better than no job. - BTW ( semi-off topic) this guy is an eye opener when it comes to be homeless. Not what you think a homeless person would say.

[Lydia]

Dogma, I am more environmentally minded than any of the Greens around here. It is MY LIFE STYLE here in kingston.

I have learned to survive in the forests and learned how to navigate myself to civilization if I lost a pathway in those forests. By the way this is actually taught in Scouts, Girl Guides, Brownies, Cubs, etc.

I know how to fish and also to hunt if needed. I put less than 10,000 Kilometers on my old car which I will keep till it is about 14 years old and more if possible.

There is nothing wrong with having a cottege and living simply if one wants to but that doesn't make them a friend of the environment nor does it make them an enemy.

When it comes to high paying jobs here in Kingston, I believe that if you don't have services jobs you will never ever get the high paying jobs either.
I am totally in favour of ALL JOBS.

I understand your desire to get more high paying jobs coming here and I want that as well. Kingston needs to be willing to WELCOME all businesses.

All mom and pop businesses are LOW paying jobs and they were the ones which created every city and town in Canada. The higher paying ones came because we had the mom and pop businesses FIRST.

[Dogma]

Again; I suggest that marginal jobs that pay minimum wage...are plenty enough in Kingston. I do not think we need more.

Remember all the 1000 services jobs created here in the past 5 years???

Call Centres! Starteck, Starbucks..Tim Hortons and retail at the Rio Can,,,,

YOU suggest we need more of the same????

Well give up your job run2010 for someone that works at Startecks then!

I guess thats easy to say, but a lot harder to deliver! - sounds like another political ploy.

I have worked in social services, for ODSP, welfare.. folks, and most don't want "marginal" low paying wages, with poor benefits..and no job security...especially when rent, taxes, fuel and insurance and food goes up! Are you kidding!

That goes against any social- environmental agenda that this city should be promoting.

I disagree that just because (one) went to Girl Guides 50 years ago the boomers now, know anything about which way is north without a compass in a forest!

How then! If your so "part of nature"! Or greener than green...How do you find the direction NORTH,without a compass..or stars..I think you are "green" on this one.


Families these days.. go to Disney World or their cottage...have spent little time in a tent or portaging across a provincial park...if any in their lives.

KOA maybe with running water and laundry service. Greenies eh????

What makes you think they would not jump on a jet ski if they had a chance...and destroy not only the water, but air .....and the noise pollution!

Please MOST cottagers have boats, refridges and microwaves these days! hats NOT a cottage! ...and silly kids that get je tski's and skidoos.

Those are your environmentalists friends?????????

No one goes to scouts in this generation, at least not on mass..
And their parents drive them there..ya environmental stewards in the making,

And anyone working on council should realize their energy should not be in promoting ANY business,so lets bring in nuclear powered poker boats then. Bring in quality business that are going to be here along time. Starteck can unplug and and be in India by next week!

Please keep in mind good paying jobs, that pay higher taxes, provide higher quality of life, and security bth for the employee and for the municipal tax levies that have increased by 50% in the past 10 years alone!

[run2010]

I agree with you regarding high paying jobs. However, the reality is we may not always get higher paying jobs. Yes the Poker Run / Tourist industry usually caters to the hospitality industry, but they are jobs.
Lots of the higher paying jobs (a) are in manufacturing which seem to be getting less. (b) skilled jobs that require training. Some people (not all) do have to make an effort and get more training. Personally, I would like the education system crack down on grammer and spelling ( true mine does need work at times ) But I have seen people that text and can not spell. I have seen people grab a calculator to figure out 10%. Employers are more demanding when it comes to basic skills. back in the 60's if you had no highschool you could go in the military. Now you need to have a highschool diploma and even advanced math or physics. Startek has provided a stepping stone for many people i know. I personally a handful that did get a governement job. It is true Startek is high risk. This is nothing against Startek, but as you said it is the nature of the industry. So far Startek has had a pretty good run in Kingston. I think it was a good investment However, if the Cdn dollar starts going above par and stay there. Its days could be numbered here. Bottom line - I do not want to pick and choose if jobs come here. Almost all are welcome.

[Lydia]

Dogma, Run2010 is 100% correct on this one.

Don't knock the skills learned from childhood and even as a senior still remembered and used.

I'll teach you a thing or two. You go out with members of the Rideau Trail Group that are out on weekend trips and just plain walking trips around this city. I DARN WELL DEAR YOU to go EVEN ONCE.

Those people will almost kill you when you try to keep up with them in the woods. They climb over hills, farmers fences, over trails, and they go out for 2 to 3 hours at a time. They will go up to Foley Mountain, and other places from here to Ottawa.

By the way they almost killed me trying to keep up with them when i was in my 50s lmao.

I call them the REAL environmentalist and not what you think I am talking about.

By the way the average age of those people run between 50 to 90 and most of them are around 80

You pitsqueek try that on for size. You try to even be a walking leader in that group and then tell me about survival in the woods without a compass.

lol lol lol

As for jobs, We NEED exactly what Run2010 is talking about.

[Dogma]

Frankly; a high school diploma was minimum in my mind 40 years ago (The days when Lydia was just a little girl, beside the cash register! -I am sure she was BORN an accountant from those days! :)

...since then we (ALL) have been warned by both governments, employers, the news and schools that a B.A is minimum, and you better get more than that..in a career of choice! This is not news!

I agree Starteck may have its place.

I am not chasing them away!

But, it seems that many in Kingston seem comfortable in institutional jobs, retirement City for ones with pensions, or maybe retail that feeds off this institutional complacence..which I believe lead to a real lack of drive, and to me we need a leader, not a follower....when Rosen leaves office.... to get quality business here.

I don't get it. Belleville got Kellogg's! We could get Samsung!

I would expect Kingston, Kedco and ALL politicians would be all over this???

I don't get Kingston's complacency???????

By the way Lydia - to tell which way is north, moss usually grows on the north side of a tree. (although in Kingston moss seems to grow on both sides of the fence)

Maybe I should take you up on your POWER walks. I prefer walking with nature, not running through it. (I am sure their fast pace walks, help health wise, good for them...but they probably have the time to do such recreational runs.

But, maybe, just maybe ---they could accept someone with a slower stride and more environmental sensitivities?

[Lydia]

I agree Dogma, you do need a B.A. these days to be able to do the things a grade nine student did in my day. lmao.

You are correct I WAS BESIDE A CASH REGISTER from the time I was 4 years old. Heck even build a snack store to sell candy to the neigbhours out of Card Board Boxes and in the 50s made over 10 dollars. :D

Now to understand Accounting of any kind all your really need is AccPro or specialize in Excel spreadsheets. It takes the B.A to allow executives be able to make up their minds on which direction to go.

I FULLY hope that We get Samsung. I hope that Mayor, Council and Kedco are going after that company to come here.



Opps Sorry Dogma you would FAIL TO FIND NORTH in the woods. The MOSS doesn't ALWAYS grow only on the North side. You might just find bark on trees that fully covered with green growth over them.

Try the tying a string onto branches that over head to indicate your way back to where you started. Also know the directions you are traveling in by the position of the sun in the sky. And if you want to go out in the snow and rain to find your NORTH. Get a life. lmao.

[Florence]

Council will ultimately make the decision on sustainability and what it means for the city.

[Dogma]

Lydia - spoken like a true accountant, some else should make the decisions.

Unless of course - the credit and debits (prove) the only correct answer.

B.A - man I wish, these days most students are looking beyond a B.A for a "career".

B.A now may get you to a job as a garbage man.

You need another designation like a CMA to not do any physical work!

North sorry, you just don't pick (1) one tree to see if the moss is growing on one side! Yikes, Lydia you think like an accountant!

Strings on trees eh, hmmm sounds like a fine idea if you are a woman, because a guy would forget to bring the string!

What if your at the south pole, how do you know where the sun is at 12 noon?

[Lydia]

Hi Florence, let's hope that THIS council makes the correct decision on sustainablity.:cool:

When I say correct, i don't mean MY WAY but what is correct for the residents of this city.

We all have a wish to sustain this city. How we go about it is the problem we face

[Dogma]

Conference Board Report - released today!

"The report noted that manufacturing here has fallen by 41.5% over the past decade."

I would say this is a concerns - losing almost 1/2 of your manufacturing and replacing it with low wage call centers jobs is not a good thing!

"Kingston's always been kind of immune from economic cycles," Lefebvre said yesterday. "While I'm not saying that there is absolutely no manufacturing sector in Kingston ... as a share of overall economic activity, it's a fairly small one" - NOW MAYBE.

Jeff Garrah, chief executive of Kingston Economic Development Corp., was a bit surprised by the numbers.

"I was anticipating being more around 0% to 1%," Garrah said yesterday.

GARRAH - WHAT DO YOU DO?

YOU are NO DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER KEDCO REP?????

If its true that Government compacent jobs, and call centers are our future...WHY DO WE NEED KEDCO - now?

The Chamber of Commerce could hire two rep's, for ANY economic development contacts. This would save us 1.5 million a year! And stop this nonsense that Kedco makes any impact for JOBS!

Enough already!

[Lydia]

WAIT A MINUTE DOGMA,

Don't blame Garrah and Kedco for Kingston Losing 41% of high paying jobs. BLAME COUNCILS in this city and the DARN RED tape that this city is NOW KNOWN for.

Look at the bull crap that Lowes when through to get into this city. Take a look at the people you have upset when council decided to let Gananoque have the Casino. I can do on and on and on.

If you didn't have Kedco you would not have ANY JOBS in this city.

I agree that 41% of manufacturing job are gone. I would also say that around the same number of any businesses in this city are gone as well. Take a look at your shopping centers and how people complained about them. (Box Stores)

Reap what you sow. Now if you truly want INDUSTRY to come here STOP THE BULL CRAP under the disguise of being an environmentalist.

Sorry Dogma, We are angry at the same thing, just not with the same people.:mad::mad:

[run2010]

This is not just a Kingston concern. The reality is it is *****er to make some goods overseas. Implemening higher taxes, carbon credits, higher wages, etc forces business to go overseas. I am not suggesting that we lower wages. However, if we offer an incentive for a companyto start up ( tax break) can be offset by taking people off unemployment and or welfare. People that say" tax the business" do not understand business. You raise taxes on a business what happens. You have to compensate. 1) I can not afford to keep you on payroll - Layoff
2) Too expensive here - it is *****er to move ( look at California business moving to Nevada or NewYork to New Jersey)
3) Raise prices

So who wins..

[run2010]

c h e a p e r is a bad word apparently

[Lydia]

Anyone who thinks that higher wages means better jobs is correct. What is often forgotten is this: It also means higher prices passed down to us.

You make sense when you say give tax breaks to business that are willing to higher people or to train people. That way they do get people back to work and productivity goes up.:)

[Dogma]

Sorry all YOU folks that shop at Walmart are there for one reason *****ER , *****ER and *****ER consumer items, food and or just a "deal".

To me, this represents the mentality of North "Americans" now, the COSTCO'S, Warehouse stores, DEPOTS, shopping CHANNEL have taken over not just the retail store market, but the mindset of "American's, Canadian lifestyles...Its all about getting something for the *****est, and you want it all NOW.

Thus, if people want *****er furnishing, home appliance or food, toys you name it! ...guess where (WE) have pushed the manufactures to go! Lower overhead, less regulations and people that want to put in a full day of work without whining for an AUTOMATIC increase! Or a salary of $100,000 to teach welding, fabrication, or machine shop!

They NOW have all the technology to compete now, thanks Canadians way to go!

Go overseas, China, India, Mexico or Hungry to get things made now!

Duuuh..WE the consumers made our own beds..I suggest to try to support your local economy FIRST, rather than buying for a $ 2.00 deal breaker!

[Lydia]

OHHHHHHHHHHHHH, Dogma is *****ER crazy.

I know what you mean Dogma, you keyboard isn't working except for the ER

I'll fill in the blanks. *****ER is actually SMARTer.:D:D:D

I had to help you out Dogma, otherwise people would think you are saying (*****ER) People will think you are for the BIRDS with all the *****, *****,*****,*****ERS.

Oh Dogma, don't you know that people buy at Walmart, Cosco, want better BARGAINS then pay a year's salary for only a loaf of bread like they do in other countries.

There is NOTHING wrong in being SMARTER, It doesn't take a brain to know that if you Pay $400.00 for an exact item at (say Canadian Tire) compared to $200 at a Box store.

Consumers will always buy at a better priced item. I'm sorry Dogma, if you own a business in Kingston and charge more than others. You NEED TO KNOW COMPETITION is what it is all about.

The reason Manufacturing doesn't happen here is due to OUR GOVERNMENTAL POLICITIES ON IMPORTING ITEMS. Has nothing to do with the Consumer.

If *****ER items were not allowed in this country then we would not have anyone being upset like you are about Canadian consumers.

[run2010]

Why is c.h.e.a.p being replaced with *****

[Dogma]

Some of the largest companies such as Coke, V.W and British Airways, Standard Chartered Bank and HSBC.have been doing business overseas for generations. Its logistics and capital financials that have been lacking for many companies to expand overseas, not regulations. Free Trade has been around since the Dutch, English sailed the oceans.

If a quality product can be done quicker and *****er then companies will eventually make this shift, it will become less of a trend and more of a way of life.

Consumers drive the expansion because they buy more than they ever have before, and WANT more diversity of products. Remember 40 years ago, there was just a handful of types of bread, appliances and cars available in North America. Increasingly consumers want more variety at the *****est products even though the days of products lasting longer will not appear for some time.
Eventually though offshore providers will win out as they have in the manufacturing industry since parent companies will have no option but to produce things as cost-effectively as possible.

This cost cutting option becomes more and more compelling in the need for companies to maintain a strict budget to achieve a desired profit margin.

Bigger and more well-known companies are making the shift to overseas manufacturing in order to increase savings and cut cost.

Yet as the debate over using overseas manufacturing continues the overseas manufacturing market continues to literally explode in growth.



Some indications put the overseas manufacturing market growing at approximately 27% per year. This growth compares favorably with almost any other segment of the market.



Most larger companies holding significant segments in their markets are now considering a move to overseas manufacturing. The companies that typically run a call center have found that locating facilities and recruiting in less-developed countries has significant business benefits.



Some of these companies are reporting a 50% savings.


Other companies report that the productivity of those seeking work in these countries is exceptionally high allowing the company to profit even more from the lower wages paid.



Overseas manufacturing though will continue to be the wave of the future.

The only segment not to eventually move to overseas may be government because of the potential political consequences.

[Lydia]

I only know one thing. The jobs in this country are either IMPORT BASED OR EXPORT BASED period.

Not matter how *****er a product is, there has to be a consumer to buy it. Otherwise they can make it over in China for NOTHING and still a product won't be buy here IF the financial situation in this country doesn't change.

Financial situation depends on people's salary and ability to PURCHASE items.

Someone has to produce it
Someone has to Ship it
Soneone has to Accept it (Shiper/Receivers)
Someone has to buy it (US) and we can only buy what we can from our WAGES or high or low wages.

Price per product depends on US The question when you buy anything these days is this: "HOW MUCH DO YOU WANT TO PAY FOR IT".

If you don't want to buy at Walmart, Costco, Box stores, then PAY more.

I will only pay more for QUALITY not just because it is there.

[Dogma]

It is true EXPORT based is better!

Think about "value added". i.e our wood get exported to US,Europe....

...or say metal from mines in INCO, i.e nickel, ore etc...shipped to Germany and guess what they do? They MAKE a machines out of it!


Wood = $ 10.00
Furnishings = $ 100.00

10 TIMES the value!
Value added means you get higher skilled workers, more return on the investment and capacity building in able to MAKE more things...the machines they make) now make cars, farm equipment, appliances, yoou name it they NOW make it.

And Germany IS the second largest exporter i the world. China may take this over soon! They who have most of the US MONEY/credit actually the US ...now.

Is that what you want?

That Canada OWES debt to China? Or any other country?????

I don't. So, you say you want the *****est eh? Well, you may pay less now! But, if your currency like the US starts to drop, because you have tomuch debt, or to much credit risk. You know (as an accountant) what happens then!


I buy local as much as possible:

1) Transportation costs
2) Environmental impact - CO2 from imports
3) local jobs
4) local income
5) local tax base
6) MONEY STAYS HERE! - not in China.
7) Encourages research and development
8) Innovation leads to less waist and less energy consumptions
9) Self sustaining and / or a "sustainable community" ......................


In particuar The City of Kingston and councils NOW official mandate

[run2010]

I would prefer buying local or national. Something I am limited by cost though and sometimes quality. However, I am a believer that buying something that is more expesive can be c-heaper in the long run. I lerned this many years ago buy buying a ***** frying pan $15 lasted for 1 month . I then purchased a $90 pan and it lasted over 15 years. So the one that cost 6 times more was the better buy. - (PS love the Paderno Cookware - very sturdy - made in Canada) Also buying Canadian is not always the best for quality, I remember in 1994 approx when DND replaced the 1 1/4 ton truck with the Western Star LSVW - made in BC. - piece of garbage - You could hear them brake from a great distance. They would of had a better vehicle by buying the AM General ( HumVee).

[Lydia]

"""""
I buy local as much as possible:

1) Transportation costs
Yes
2) Environmental impact - CO2 from imports
CO2 from Us
3) local jobs
ALL JOBS
4) local income
HUSBAND (KIDDING) Pension
5) local tax base
PAY LOCAL TAX
6) MONEY STAYS HERE! - not in China.
WHAT MONEY
7) Encourages research and development
BIG TIME YES
8) Innovation leads to less waist and less energy consumptions
ABOUT TIME BRING INDUSTRY IN
9) Self sustaining and / or a "sustainable community"

AGREED, I do sustain myself with my own wealth and investment in companies that are CANADIAN Kingston has better knock it off by trying to use the Environment as an example of sustainablity. You need to welcome BUSINESSES to this city to sustain ANYTHING.

All kidding aside, Dogma, I believe the Run2010, you and I are actually saying the exactly thing to keep this city working and sustainable.

Instead of attacking anyone's views on here, I personally respect everyone's views not matter whether I see things in a different light.

I know that we are all trying to respect each other and also accept each other's views.

If we can do it how come Council can't when it comes to the City as a whole.

[Dogma]

I agree Lydia - respecting ones opinion is debatable...it seems everyone is an armchair expert. It can also be looked at sometimes when one actual know what one is talking about. You as an accountant - I would never suggest, I would know accounting, its methods, for either analysis for financing or how to do a month end!

So, I would never comment on such matters,and should not be expected to actually give financial advice. EVER.

So, there is a difference (in my mind) between one who is actually trained, or has a career, lots of experience, or a particular expertise, and one that is a weekend arm chair expert.

I just prefer to use my critical opinion with experience as a professional and designations that supports the advice, one that knows something about "buying".

And I am not speaking of "buying" a $ 20.00 sweater from the GAP,or $ 200 shopping spree off the internet from ebay. Not that its not Capitalism and one "right", but it is just contributing to a un-sustainable way of thinking.

Even though woman are sometimes right and never wrong...my sense is this sustainable "concept" this council and interest groups such as SPLASH seem to have a good idea, but rather militant in their approaches. I agree with buying local for the points I have indicted, but "the best value", is what people should consider, TCO (total cost of ownership) , like your housewares, but many shop at Walmart, or buy Chinese goods, just to get the c-heapest to save a buck or two...

Sorry, again I respect folks that have a good sense of TCO, and I do not want anyone telling us how great of buy they got...to save 5 bucks, and the stuff is junk!

Although there are always exceptions. Toyota now, the media say their quality is now poorer...but that isjust short term thinking. Tey are and likely always to be the higher quality product in cars, and will learn from their expansion of their product ,to not get to over stretched.

Quality more than quantity would be my suggestion.

[Lydia]

Dogma, you are a hoot. Although I have worked in the Accountant field for many years, I still prefer the title HOUSEWIFE. over Accountant. lmao.

My work experience is working for Accounttemps a division of Robert Half Accountant Agency in Toronto. As a HOUSEWIFE, my experience is 43 years of torment my husband and getting money out of a Scotchman. Not an easy task. lol lol

Just to make you feel better, I always look and buy the Canadian labeled items no matter what they are. I only invest in Canadian businesses and so I fully understand why you feel the way you do about Buy Local.

Keep in mind Dogma, the TRULY ***** people are actually the Millionaires of this world. That iS why THEY are MILLIONAIRES. Of course a Million dollars isn't what it use to be many years ago.

I also agree with Quality over quantity everytime. Having owned a Toyota, I also agree that they probably will be back as best quality car. The only trouble with Toyota is that they nickle and dime you to death when you want options in your car. Quality wise they were always best.

Ford use to be called the Firer Ford. Chrysler was *****, GM was actually the more expensive cars.

Having Worked on an assignment in the Chrysler plant in Brampton, I was not overly impressed with that company. My Daugher's friend also was hired to design cars for the Chrysler plants in Detroit. Again I was not overly impressed.

It is also good to know that You have learned the lesson well, WOMEN ARE NEVER WRONG, might be mistaken but NEVER WRONG.

Have a good week ahead.:):)

[Dogma]

Lydia - I can appreciate you only as an accountant. And political watchdog!

Your 43 years of marriage bliss puts tear in my eyes ....especially with a c-heap Scott? But, congratulations anyways, I hope I will make it that long.

But, no wonder your so frugal!

Accountant + Scott = c-heap and cheerful.

[Lydia]

:D:D:D:D

Funny how i say 43 years and it puts TEARS in your eyes. Has the EXACT reaction in my husbands eyes too. (for different reasons of course) lol


Get it right Tyra calls herself Queen a *****, She stole my crown. lmao.

Thanks Dogma.

[lencoo12]

run2010 - I hope that council next time, will have a little less greeny agenda..& filler concerns such as banning Pesticides, Poker Runs and anything to do with shutting down businesses in the area. I would suggest you maybe interested to balance the needs of the community going forward.
I may at time sound anti - green. Just like most people i believe in recycling, not polluting, etc. However, there are some people that can not find a balance. You can be green all you want. But in order to "sustain" economically we need another green. It amazes me that they are throwing jobs away. I had one person (not a counciler) say that its just a few days of job loss. Some people may need those few days to make rent.

Glad we are seeing thing the same way Dogma

[Lydia]

Excellent points here dogma and lencoo.