Official Plan Submission - McBurney Park Neighbourhood Association

[posting]

Official Plan Submission to the Kingston Planning Committee from the McBurney Park Neighbourhood Association

June 2008

The following comments are limited to the aspects of the Official Plan that directly affect the residents of the Neighbourhood Association. It is hoped that individuals will make separate comments on local and more general aspects of the Draft Official Plan.

This is a wonderful draft and we compliment the Committee. We particularly like the emphasis on design and compatibility of new development in older areas.

While there is much emphasis on water, there is no apparent mention of swimming and the preservation of beaches and emphasis on the suitability of the water for swimming. (Swimming lessons were once offered on Belle Island) In older areas of the city there is no room for swimming pools, which are well beyond the affordability of many residents here and elsewhere. (Regardless of water quality, it will be difficult to prevent swimming off the pier behind KPH) The potential of Richardson Beach is not reached as an assignation place. These issues may be addressed in the Parks and Recreation Master Plan but a copy is not at hand. Please do not overlook this important aspect of city life.

We are delighted by the inclusion of ‘St. Lawrence Ward’ as a Heritage area. We would like to be consulted prior to the zoning by-law to implement this designation. Further we request that the boundaries of the area be addressed with the Association prior to the zoning by-law. The boundaries, no doubt, made sense when they were drawn, but we find them somewhat arbitrary now. Could they not be changed before the O.P. is final?

Pathways: Please include the path which goes from the butt end of North Street to Doug Fluhrer Park. Please also include Primrose Way.

Collector Streets: The Ordnance York corridor is recognised as a collector street. It is now functioning as an Arterial and the traffic undermines the stability of the area. We respectfully request a re-examination of this corridor so that further traffic calming can be achieved or traffic diverted. Enshrining this as a collector in the Official Plan is not in our best interest.

There are currently two rezoning applications on the periphery of our neighbourhood so standards of compatibility are needed now.

[Dogma]

It would be nice if the residence in that area had a chance to actually see the official plans, editing by the "Association" and any changes/submissions regarding our future. I suppose their annual meetings ,brainstorming events have some ideas on these items, but can they at least put it on their website - or have an online survey?

Additionally; could they please remove the 500 watt halogen lights/bulbs the "Association" had put in McBurney Park?

These new lights - now light up the whole park and beam into the residences windows at night. Its good to have a representive at the table for the community, but some of these "revitalization" ideas and initatives are debateable. Do they really add to the needs or just the capacity building for the neighbourhood. Or its more of a academic, militant group that has a thesis to prove. The tree's they wanted to plant seemed like a good idea at the time. But, no one did their "homework" to know you cannot plant tree's in that old graveyard without permission! Monies collected over $ 5000.00 are still in a bank somewhere unused, no plaque have been issued to the doners and just a fraction of tree's have been planted. Don't get me wrong I see their good intentions, but at least have your ducks in order with reasonable goals before you start waving your flags, then fail to do what the neighbour wants.

[Lydia]

Hi Dogma,

I am surprised that you didn't have this on here long ago. The Whig informed the people of copies being available to anyone who wished to comment on the draft plan over a month ago.

Shirley Bailey, and other Planning Staff were very willing and open to the community. She and her partners came out to Isabelle Turner's Library and did presentations. They did an excellent job.

She even came out to the Loyalist Cataraqui Community Association. Hopefully you all had a chance to comment on it. After all this is our city not just our district.

[Dogma]

Hi Lydia -

They did do a presentaion on McBurney Park- that was from the "Association"?

Meaning - just what the McBurney Park Association submitted, not the entire plan for all the parks!

Is this correct?

I would be curious to know, because there is nothing on their website!

[Lydia]

The Planners actually did both in the west end. I invited Shirley Bailey to come to our Loyalist Cataraqui Community Association to speak to us directly and she did a beautiful job. All our members were very much appreciative and admired her tact and honesty. She was not scared to address the issues and did so.

However, Her Department did come out and also did an excellent presentation at Isabell Turner Library for anyone who wished to come out.

They also give at least 4 opportunities for the public throughout the city to come to presentations in different parts of the city.

They didn't just do it for associations, they did their presentations to the entire city at least 4 locations that I know off.

They were more than willing to lend out copies of the official draft for people to give them input on their plans.

Everyone that I know had questions and were encouraged to give input. They did a great job in being open and welcoming to all people.

[Dogma]

"Official Plan" - ok the overall City Planning....!

NOT - McBurney Park in particular...ok I see now!

Gotcha - I though so.

Again - I remain sceptical the McBurney Park Association - has been elected, or experienced enough to be planners, developers of the "municipal area" in a practical, democratic way. I can say they can bring some local history, and some voice to the process, petitions etc.

But, I personally depend on our City Planners expertise, experience and knowledge of current bylaws to develop the overall plans for the area.

Not to say, community involvement is paramount.

But, ideas such as swimming lessons at Belle Park, @ the beach seems rather far fetched and costly. The current bylaw's, no infastructure & current insurance requirements - with no surveys from the community in hand, I find this "idea" somewhat based on conjector.

Not to say "the Association" has good intentions and lots of good will, but some of their ideas they are trying to pitch such as a bread oven in the park - is absolutely flakey.

Instead of focusing on the things that are not there that would immediately benefit the neighbourhood, "the Association" with the greater City of Kingston planners, parks & recreation should be focusing - for real things people need every day - like new childrens play equipment in the park!

Swimming/pool - it seems obvious we do not need a 50m pool, we need 2 x 25m pools, when we can afford it. One in the east end, one in the west end.

There are to many "pitch" groups now. Associations, interest, organisational groups that pitch for themselves...only.

Let City staff study what other municipalities are doing, and what is similarly required here, then and only then can we have an unbias, democratic "Official City Plan" that deliver the best services for "whole City" from the current tax dollars we all pay.

[Lydia]

There are to many "pitch" groups now. Associations, interest, organisational groups that pitch for themselves...only.


On this you and I agree. There are many groups that pitch for themselves only. That is why i don't agree with lobbyists. The main purpose of Community Associations is total to avoid this from happening.

Community Associations is where these lobbyists should present their issues. So that EVERY RESIDENT has a chance to agree or disagree with what these people want.

Who ever the councilor of that district should be present to listen, respond, and to learn from everyone not just the lobbist.

What I really really liked was when Shirely Bailey indicated that the Official Draft Plan will adopt by-laws from the Ontario Offical Plans. Making our by-laws unified with the rest of the province. To me that is the most open and honest way of dealing with by-laws. Also once the draft has been accepted, the by-laws will affect the ENTIRE city. (East, West, North and South). This will finally be a true emalumation of this city.

I really have faith in our planners even if I won't agree with all the by-laws. However If it affects everyone, I will adopt to them. At least everyone had a chance to put their views forward.
:D:D

[Dogma]

I agree Lydia - individual organizations, private or public lobby groups need to be in the debate, but not finishing it.

I remember when Centre 70 was suddenly going to be expanded! The City recreation staff manager at that time, was ready to ok the expansion with little or no council debate or "overall" study, planning etc.

This "agenda" to expand the rink came from the local community lobby group and bypassed any process for debate, or by any business model.

It was thank goodness defeated at the last minute, by Rosen and the CEO.

Since then, new rink studies, public consulation, repurposing debates for keeping old for new, including "best locations" long term community needs accessments for local rinks have probably cost us a fortune, (although the LVEC was moved from the Anglan Bay?).

So, much for lobby groups disapearance from influencing outcomes. They are still present and call them what you like, "Associations", "Concern Citizens", or "Lobbyists"...they all have their core group, missions, juristdictions
and utimately their "agenda"! - irregardless of what studies, budgets or "overall good for the City".

Politics are politics'. Spin it as you wish - in the end there will always be lobbist.

But an overall bylaw for the province or (Federal regulations! for the country) would go along way to streamline the process, and save a heck of alot of debate, and tax $.

[Lydia]

I personally think that if there are any interest groups that wish to express themselves then they should do so in their own Community Associations before being allowed to present petitions to Council. Councillors should attend their own district Community Association Meetings to get a real know how their residents feel. Only then should decisions be made for or against causes, developments, plots and plans. Staffers are there to perform work for the elected council representatives and should never be allowed to soley be responsible for anything.

[Dogma]

I could not agree with you more - with the process you clearly stated.

The only element missing is the "City wide" - initatives, or plans & process. Inwhich Associations can play a part through committees...but as an example:

Master Transportation Plan as an example are just becoming "reports".

Associations will come and go, some areas don't even have them. So, yes they allow a voice for a neighbourhood...

My sense is generally the "old ways" of running Kingston municipalities, compared to now as an amalgamated City have changed structurally.

Bert CEO of Kingston - changed the entire way of doing business at City Hall, to deliver services to the public. He also hired professional staff with the education, experience and interpersonal skills for "Public Service".

[Lydia]

Dogma, I personally like the Committee system over Community Associations. However, I only like that system IF and I MEAN IF, People are NOT elected to serve on them. That way people who differ in opinions can serve on them which I believe the most democratic way. You would be surprised how, If given a chance, people with opposite opinions CAN come to agreements on issues when they are forced to in a committee system.

At least our committees are open to the public to listen and learn from. Now if only OUR committees could be on a first come-basis rather than being hand picked.

I find that when the public comes out to serve that usually the people most vested in a cause actually are the best to serve and make up a committee.

If and when that ever happens there would not be a need for community associations. However, until then I like the Community Associations.

p.s. Did you get to go the WWE2008 Conference at St. Lawrence College?

[Dogma]

We currently have a process to allow for bylaw's changes, or identified areas the public interest (for council approve funding for studies) for the new amalgamated way of doing city business.

Committees that are struck for "approved funding" for a report on any public initative...are important and do have a structural body, in the sense of a always including a counsel member, or two - a city staffer and community members or two "stakeholders" (either an Association member or representative of a community group) to either participate with the committee and/or (offer neighbourhood group presentations) i.e The Agricultural Society that runs the Kingston Fair, regarding the current "Memorial Center study" reporting committee, for council approval for any repurposing or changes in bylaw's.

This works well and is perfectly fine procedure that many municipalities adopt as policy "procedures".

There are NO hand picked committee members.

They are representatives of the "neighbourhood" that is affected by the study. (period)

A staff member to advise on current/past City bylaws, policies and contract agreements, is essential - and need to be understood by members of the committee to undertake "any discussion, reasearch or recommendations" regarding any policy changes, reports that go infront of council to vote on.

Then council votes on any/or approvals or declines with regards to changes, funding or deferral requirements.

This is the process and it seems much more fair than the "old way" of doing public business, with a wink and a handshake.

[Lydia]

This is the process and it seems much more fair than the "old way" of doing public business, with a wink and a handshake.

Oh I agree with you on this one 110%. What I mean by saying ""hand picked" i MEAN that from a group of 16 people who come forward to serve on a committee ONLY one person actually gets ELECTED by councilor's concent to serve on a committee.

This is certain more fair than a wink and handsake.

Why not go all the way and get those other 15 people to form a TRULY ADVISORY GROUP where those people elect who services as a representative on the Council's Committees.

Those representatives then report back and forth to both groups as to what the real issues are that come before Council for consideration.

[Dogma]

15 people +

are you crazy? There would be no decisions made with that many!

[Lydia]

You are RIGHT, What was I thinking. 15 people couldn't help make a decision. Let's increase that to 30 lmao.


I'm not saying 15 people on Committee Team, Only an Advisory Team which would not consist of Councilors. The Committee Team would have the Councillors on it. The Advise should come from the people who really give a dang. lol lol.

[Dogma]

Maybe - its an idea to invite / organise all the neighbourhod groups to send (one) 1 representive, to meet every quarter together to allow for a City neighbourhood voice as a truly citizens group. Then groups are not "doing their own thing" and we could have a process to spend time and effort (and money) more effecively. To many groups lead to fragmented initatives & spending.

[Lydia]

Wow, Now we are talking. I fully agree. No ONE group/associations/or Community Associations groups should decided for the ENTIRE CITY. We elect our Councillors to represent Us and our views. Once they are together in our Council meetings that is where and only where those decisions should be made.

All I would like to see is that Our Councilors have Community Associations to gather their residents' views before having to make final decisions on things.

Some people feel that our Councilors are voting on things by way of their poliical party lines. That is left to be determined by the residents in the next elections.

I personally don't feel that way but I know first hand that others actually do. I happen to like this present Council even when I don't agree with them on their positions on things.

Happy Canada Day Dogma, Have a great weekend and Have Fun.

[Dogma]

Party lines maybe so.

But, each council has its own mandate for the times. And the mandate for these past several years are the 7 priority projects that the public has asked and financed to be completed in a reasonable time. Although, fringe bylaws and community initatives do pop up over a council.

This council is more "hard lined" or alined regarding environmental, social and health related projects. Tree bylaw, Aberdeen/ Queens Homecoming, 50 meter pool, K & P trail.

The previous was more about economic development, or a coming to the end of local "institutional" conviences, and infastructure capacity: Multiplex, LVEC and Market Square, Grand Theatre...John Counter Blvd.

Previous to that the City was rather "plan-less". And stagnent . Leaping from issue to issue.

Its will always be a balancing act no matter what "stripe" you come from. And I believe retirement of several public service folks, has developed new ideas, and needed energy for a culture that is know for its bureacracy.

The public's needs are now, about the reality of higher taxes, fuel etc. less upper level monies, postwar infastructure, maintanence and likely more accountable than previous generations, in terms of user pays.

Hopefully Kingston now has a plan and will follow it, through any future council.

[Lydia]

Previous Council were rather "plan-less". And stagnent . Leaping from issue to issue.


This I full agree with. One thing i true do admire about our Mayor Harvey is this. He is a man with vision, a dynamic and strong Mayor. He is determined to see plans completed. He is a futurists and he accomplishes his ideas and plans. Exactly what Kingston needs and needed.

How that I have said that I also know that he is NOT ALWAYS correct in his vision. He is also a stubborn man and he doesn't allow anyone to change his mind once he takes a stance. He is contraversial and has done alot to put a tack under people's backside on issues. lol lol.

All in all a man that will always be remembered for both the good and bad sides of him. lol lol. At least remembered.

Personally, I also counsider myself a futurists as well. Like Harvey, Good And Bad, however I have been known to change my mind every once in a while. lol. Of course, I am a woman and that is my RIGHT to change my mind. lol.

Happy Canada Day, Dogma.

p.s. When I say political i mean Party Lines ie. Liberal, Progressive, Green Party, NDP, etc.

[Dogma]

Defined we are all of political stripes.

Small "L" liberal, NDP, Greens, Conservative.

This councils leanings are definitely NDP weighted.

If Harvey lasts - I will be surprised, he has definitely shaken up...Kingston's left leaners.

[Lydia]

Let's face it, There is something we can all learn from ALL PARTY LINES.

The Problem that we face is this:

Will we at least LISTEN to them all and then decided whether we have learned the Good things and the Bad Things from all of them. After all the politicans are only HUMAN and therefore will teach us both sides. If we but listen and then will willing to defend our OWN views.

This Dogma, you have done, even when You didn't listen to me. lol lol. Okay ill give you that, you listened, didn't agree but you did listen lol lol.

Harvey has and will succeed in anything that he takes up. That I know.:D:D