Market Square - Name or Refund?

[Bill(2)]

At the risk of opening up the floodgates, I'm wondering if anyone else out there is really puzzled / annoyed by the upcoming motion by Councillor MacLeod-Kane. I understand the driving force behind the motion, but it really needs to be better thought out.

If the council chooses to reverse a decision made earlier, fine. But you don't get to keep the money too. At least, not without the donors agreement. Fund-raising is hard enough without needed to worry about deals being torn apart after the fact. What credibility will the fundraisers have if their commitments, which are ultimately backed / approved by city council, can be just thrown out. The deal was a deal - and I do NOT want to nor will I get into a debate as to how the deal was struck - that has already been done.

If the intent is to redo or ratify everything in the open, well the intentions are good but I don't like the methods. Cancel the deal, but give the Springer family the first right of refusal for having the Market Square named after them, for a fee which is is published with the appropriate terms and conditions (life of the naming rights, cancellation clauses, limits or restrictions that may apply, etc.) Hey, that's really fair.

Whatever the way it is done, the process must NOT tie the hands of the sport marketing firm that will be trying to sell the Regional Sport and Entertainment Facility. If companies find out that the city council will not fulfil its part of the bargain and will not return the money, well you can guess how many will want to do business with Kingston (then again, there are some that want exactly this to happen, but that's another thread.)

We shall see what the morrow (tomorrow night actually) will bring.

[Bill(2)]

Last night, the motion to rename Springer Market Square to Market Square was deferred, pending legal input. Well, we shall see what happens here.

Personally, if people have an issue with the deal, well that's negotiation.

We shall see what the next step is in a few weeks, based on how long it takes for legal to form an opinion and present their advise.

[Bill(2)]

The decision has been rendered. While it is noted that there may have been (or are) better ways to go about it, the decision made by council is correct in the eyes of the law. The full decision has been posted in another section / thread. http://www.kingstonelectors.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=1906

Now it's a purely emotional issue (aren't they all?) :eek:

The decision is rendered, advise has been provided to council by legal staff.

It will be interesting to see what develops next Tuesday. :confused:

[BornAndRaised]

I totally agree with you here Bill. What is done is done! If we think that it is wrong then we need to change policies to prevent further similar incidents in the future. Mayor Rosen fully admitteed that the way it was handled was not the best(Recognized the problem), but I did not see him nor any other council at the time, attempt to create a policy to prevent that from happening again(Solve the problem). I was skeptical about the way it was handled and it gave people who opposed it lots of ammunition to make those involved look bad.

Emotion is great tool for influencing others to agree with a decision but when we use it to influence ourselves then it can cloud our better judgemnet. We need more people who lead with logic and follow with emotion.

[Bill(2)]

:confused: Last night, the motion by Councillors MacLeod-Kane / Garrison was debated, amended and defeated. During the debate, Councillor Smith read out the text of a letter (or portions thereof - I can't quite remember) from Kingston Terminal Properties (aka Springer) and contained was the basic message that they would not be willing to re-open the discussions. There were also comments about the process, and during the debate there was a lot of back pedalling to save face, but the damage was already done. The Springers were slapped in the face - and not by the request (IMHO) to change the 'acknowledgement' but rather the comments that came up prior to the motion being debated and by some of the comments made during the debate - last night and before. There was even an attempt after the stance of the Springers was known to put a figurative gun to their head. Councillor Hutchison wanted to add a clause that if negotiations were not to be entered into, then the city would give the money back and retract the charitable donation receipt. He just didn't seem to understand that a contract is a contract is a contract. If it is a 'bad contract', then shame on those that negotiated it. But it still is a contract and it cannot just be torn up now.

A lot of discussion revolved around the credibility the city would now have for fundraising (or any business, come to think about it) should the contract just be torn up. Hopefully that message got through to some of the councillors.:rolleyes:

However, it doesn't end there. Councillors Smith / Osanic presented a motion that would acknowledge all of the history, including perceived errors in procedure, and puts to rest the discussion - MOVE ON being the basic message IMHO. This was almost immediately jumped on since it specifically mentions the Springer contribution - The motion itself was under debate when the clock ran out, and Council chose not to extend, except for By-Laws, so we shall see what happens. :p

[Lydia]

Heritage Spaces & Places Process Motion
March 23, 2007

Moved by Rob Matheson
Seconded by Lisa Osanic

Whereas the naming process of publicly owned heritage places, spaces, and structures has become a cause of concern to many citizens of Kingston.

Whereas the City’s current naming policy provides guidelines but is not specific to heritage places, spaces and structures.

Whereas the policies of the City strive to be transparent, allow for public input, provide open timely communications, and follow a fair tendering process,

Therefore be it resolved that:

1. Staff, reporting to both the Heritage Committee and the Arts Recreation and Community Policies Committee research the names of all municipally owned places, spaces and structures, and provide the background of all names, such as Murney Tower, that are deemed to be of heritage importance and should be retained, and of all names, such as Harold Harvey, that may be deemed to be of community importance and should not be forgotten; and

2. That the Heritage and ARC committees then forward to the Administrative Policies
Committee a list of municipally owned places, spaces and structures that either currently
have no name or otherwise might be deemed suitable for renaming; and

3. Staff reporting through the Administrative Policies Committee research, consult and
develop recommendations regarding the City’s current naming policy for such places,
spaces and structures that are deemed suitable for naming or renaming, and recommend the best ways to implement greater public input into future naming of municipally owned places, spaces and structures, with the full understanding that any pre-existing naming agreements will be honoured; and

4. That the names as determined by the Heritage and ARC Committees that should be
retained, and the policies as determined by the Administrative Policies Committee for
naming or renaming where suitable be incorporated in a by-law for their greater
protection.

Be it further resolved that there be no renaming of any existing heritage places, spaces or structures until such time as a new by-law governing this process, once approved by Council, receives third reading.

Should the recommendations deal with commercial or other forms of naming, these recommendations (if accepted) would only take effect from the date of implementation of the new Naming Policy.

[Lydia]

Gee the nerve of Robert and Lisa putting such a motion into affect. Don't they know that every citizen knows exactly every public place that bares a name and fully understand why that name came to be?

The nerve of these councillors wanting us to fully appreciate the importance these places and things had to previous residents now long gone.

The nerve of these councillors wanting to be able to promote these places by having the history and knowledge about these places so that tourists who might want to know about them would have the information.

Can you imagine the work that needs to be done to understand why names were used to honour those individuals? How can the rich people ever buy those locations and places if the city did what Robert suggested?

I would love to know how many people would agree with Dorothy Hector who indicated that this might be a HUGH task and might not be important enough to do. Imagine the work that would need to be done in gathering that information (which I would think our historians would already know).

Just imagine, never needing to be proud of our historical places and things.

[Dogma]

I understand Kingstonians (new) interest in "saving" the name of
"heritage designated" building (places).

And the idea that it cannot be sold to the highest bidder....

(behind closed doors) or otherwise - here is the current policy:
WHAT ARE NAMING RIGHTS?

The City of Kingston has policies regarding naming rights of publically owned places, buildings etc. already.........lets turn back the bylaw /clock.

http://www.cityofkingston.ca/residents/recreation/arenas/lvec/namingrights.asp (http://www.cityofkingston.ca/residents/recreation/arenas/lvec/namingrights.asp)

[Lydia]

:confused: :confused: This stuff is taught in School??? Wow then how come it is so difficult for the city to have the information regarding all the places which have been given a name? Dorothy Hector taught it would be too much work to get this type of information. Very interesting!!!

It should not be any problem then for Robert to get what he wants.:D :D :D

[Dogma]

If history is not taught in school regarding the significance of "space" or buildings etc of Kingston.
(Not that kids could vote for a council members motion such as this latter one...)

I would say the general public has ample opportunity to be "informed" or engaged in the significants of each and every "historical" or architectural building by joining the Kingston Historical Society!

I frankly subscribe to the Kingston Historical Society's newsletter, and received in 2003 their Vol. 51 on "Historic Kingston" that studies hundreds of local places, names and political peoples of Kingston, ON.

Indeed; many other noted historians and writers of Kingston's history - retired Dr. Brian Osborne of Queens Geography Dept. and Peter Trueman have pretty well covered all the places in Kingston of any significant historical "story".

Osborne and others have several books and essays - and would be the first person I would call to "inventory" significant local names etc.

[Lydia]

Thanks Dogma, Now we all know where to get information.

by the way HAPPY EASTER LOL LOL.

Ill send this info along to Robert Matheson. Keep in mind Robert isn't from here. His request was correct and we should be very proud of the great history we have. We should also turn it into a project that can become a major industry for us and I believe it already has.

To be frank, It would also be a way to show how every district in this city has historical ties and how important these places and things are to our district. Too often they are there just to melt away from everyone's eyes and concern.

[Dogma]

Indeed; Easter Greetings to you also.

Nice day for staying inside! :p

[Bill(2)]

While it is important to know the history of our locale, lack of your own knowledge should not be the catalyst for putting in place process and/or procedures for documenting, tracking and publicizing the background behind the names of heritage / historical properties or other items of interest. I submit that if someone (such as myself) is new to the city, then it be-hooves me to get involved and learn about this stuff. It is not the role or responsibility of the civic authorities (city hall) to bridge the gap. Yes, programs that they administer should be supported, but their responsibility ends there.

[Dogma]

Bill - I agree totally. There needs to be much more thought on this knee jerk reation to Market Squares unfounded priority.

One citizen that maybe new to the City or even one who has lived here all their life...it’s truly up their interest in "history" or public spaces i.e. significance in our social, economic & cultural ways to know what is "properly named".

It seems though that some Kingstonians groups, individuals etc. feel its only 1 of 4 "heritage cities" in Canada.

The tourism "economic trap" has alot to do - with "naming our preservable buildings" as fast as possible.

In Kingston, 20 years ago no one gave a dam about the 19th century buildings. They tore down or moved many.

But, the economic renaissance opportunity (because of no economic development here) alsong with responding institutions in the region (businesses) (with Government funding) seem to elevate Kingston's sudden nostalgic "cultural historical significance"?


Personally; I enjoy history and would like to participate in the "unfinished preservation" of some local architecture. But, at what cost and under who's mandate? That is the question.

It is not enough in my mind to simply mandate that nothing can be "renamed" without permission from council. Because I do not believe council or frankly many of us have any background or unbias association with local historical buildings that could make such decisions. (i.e both an economical and politically fair decision)

I agree that the business "McDonalds" & potentially McDonalds Hall maybe rather unfit for renaming City Hall ,if and when we need money to pay for its preservation. (Although one could say Sir John A maybe - pleased.)

On this point, I understand councils motive. It’s a matter of balancing of ones commitment to significant public history not just to glorify ones agenda or misinformed ego.

Vimy Ridge is a good example of this.

Frankly; these anniversaries seem to glorify ones perception - in this case the art of war, rather than what it should be in this case - that The Great War - (the war to end all wars) - did infact do the exact opposite.

It (WW1) and many wars was a dismal war - killing and disfiguring millions. How ironic 6 Canadian were killed the day before the ceremonies. I will remeber this before any re" dead" ication.

Indeed; WW1 also led to the second world war.. because of Countries or Governments of countries institutions perpetuating their instituations through war.

The Germans, French and English had their motivations in WW1. And again in WW2.

WW1 was along ethic lines.

WW2 was just finishing up WW1 oppressive guidelines on a countries, collecting the spoils and dividing
nations up for gain.

This is NOT a history that should be "glorified" or sold.

To me history needs to be scrutinized, not embellished not "sold" to the general public of a traditional assumption.

History has many points of view, and most of the time it is not accurate. Nor named for the correct reasons.

Vimy neither - was Canada's greatest achievement in our history, (or WHEN WE CAME OF AGE - the birth place of our nation etc)

The people who settled this country and continue to make it a just and civil , AND "Canadian society" are as important or hero's to this nation as any young soldier.

A nation is a living history - not one that is encapsulated and preserved and glorified for particular groups (names) or for even 20 Century ideologies. Let us not forget the dead or contributors to this nation - but not at any cost.

[Bill(2)]

Perhaps the guiding principle here should be simply common sense. Retain the status quo for those institutions, building or other landmarks that are already named. Make sure that new names going forward have an explanation as to why the name is being recommended. That is all that is needed. Yes, there will be times that decisions made may be unpopular. It will happen. And we will get over it (eventually). Simplistic suggestion? yep. But this is something that needs to stay simple, otherwise we can cork-screw ourselves into the ground trying to cover all of the bases.

Earlier discussions moved around the workload issue - staff needing to research all and then report to two committees their findings. Well, that is just too silly. It will take a long time - memory of local historians (real or imagined) will need to be verified before it is taken as gospel. And this will take time. Given that there are no time-lines presented in the motion, how much of a priority (and associated staff) needs to be given this project.

No, I don't think that this is do-able. It needs to be better thought out.

[Lydia]

The reason the Americans are as patriotic as they are is BECAUSE they are taught about important names, places, events.

Show me where in Kingston, this is done?? Show me where people are taught the importance of this city let alone different locations, buildings, etc.
Show me where in our education system are we even taught history as an important study that EVERY student would be proud of.

Just maybe Robert's suggestion of getting the city staffers to gather this information and to celebrate it is JUST what this city needs.

If a tourist asks about anything location of history of a building, where should they turn to get the information? Heck if you ask people in this city what the address is for a company or organization, you run into difficulty. How many newcomers know where John Brown's Store is anyway??? Okay Maybe not John Brown's Store how about the S&R Store?? Try asking directions about where something is let alone know the importance of these buildings.

So gentlmen I think you just might be a little incorrect in your way of thinking. I know you think that I am the one that is incorrect. So we will just agree to disagree.

How many people are truly proud to be Canadian let alone be proud of living in Kingston. I wonder why????

[Dogma]

The reason the Americans are as patriotic as they are is BECAUSE they are taught about important names, places, events.I am Canadian because I am not American (although a "North American" - or ones from the America's)

I am I hope more a globally minded and ethnically diverse society rather than an isolated one type fits all - as Americans are.

After reading two basic books on Kingston's history - (local buidings in particular when I arrived... )

I can give directions and some background into Kingston's 19th century buildings.

But frankly they are living museums. (Did you know that Kingston's City Hall's design is from one of Irelands Capital Buildings)

You need to visit them ..to really know what the history is. Most have plaques on their history anyways.

Frankly - history is a living culture. Not just a past one.

[Bill(2)]

Well - here's a thought. Education. School. Lessons - wow - what a concept. OK - all kidding aside, the stuff is (or was) taught in schools. I submit however that it is not the education of the history in American schools that make the so 'patriotic' but rather being in an insular, myopic environment. It is an attitude that is promoted throughout, as I found out dealing with my 'merican brother-in-law.

[Lydia]

I couldn't agree with you more Dogma, Our history is very much a living one. That is why I think that Robert's Amendment is an excellent one. We should know and read more about our buildings, places and respected citizens. So we have a pride in our city. We have so much history and so much to be proud of.

You are also correct Bill in speaking about an isolated views on society that the Americans have. Again we are luck in living in Canada because even when people say that we have no culture, they are soo wrong.

Our culture is the acceptance of every nation's people. This is also a good and bad thing that we have to deal with. It is a two sided sword. If we take the good people from other nations we also have to accept their history and family culture. This is good and bad because of our own ignorance about other people's cultures. When i say ignorance, i'm not talking about being critical or rude, Ignorance to me means that I do not know or understand their culture. That ignorance causes us to fear people and shows up as intolerance. However, for the most part I believe that what makes us a strong city and country is that we are WILLING to learn and grow.

I say that we must learn by visting our support our precious buildings, sites, etc. In order to do that, we need to know them.

Dogma, can you tell us what the title of that book was that you learned so much about our city hall? Please share that with us.:p :p

[Dogma]

With due respect to history and our education system. It is taught in school. Canadian, U.S or European etc. history. They are called electives for which you need as a credit.

I cannot remember the author of the book for Historical Kingston off the top -....but I found it less academic and more a general book that gave you what the common person would need and likely read (entire thing) and likely result in a wider public understanding and appreciation.

I will tell you one thing. When you look at City Hall.

If you look on the outside of City Hall - about second story level up.... there are 2 meter high x 3/4 m wide cubby holes (or window type alcoves. There are several of them that line (that height of the building) that go completely around the buildings face. And they are all empty.

What do you think (should go in there?)

For one I wish to (before anyone else) put something there. (But can you guess what?)

And I will try to get the book, author for you. I think it is well worth the read. And its by a local woman.

[Peter Walker]

Sounds like maybe it was "Old Stones of Kingston", by Margaret Angus. I think it came out in the 60's -- it has been on the bookshelves in our family home for eons.

Another local woman who wrote historical books on local matters was Jennifer McKendry.

An interesting book written recently that has a lot of local history in it:
"But Before That....A History of the Woollen/Cotton Mill" by R. Bruce Warmington, 2002.

[Lydia]

Thanks Peter, I wonder if anyone look for those books would find them in the Library down town. I'll let you know if that is possible.

Let's bring those books out again just for old times sake.

[Dogma]

Yes, thats it - "Old Stones of Kingston", by Margaret Angus.

The others mentioned are a little heavier read.. and Dr. Brian Osbornes is even heavier...and longer.

Margarets - is probably the best for the general public read.

Answer -

City Halls outside window coves - are for:

"statues"

Statues in particular for: ............our Prime Ministers! Each has its spot. Special eh?

But, they ran out of money building the Hall - so no statues!

Just - like the square across the street!

Amazing...........How things do not change just because of political will. Then or now.

But, speaking of ego...I am thinking of putting ME up there one day soon! - so I can be addorned by my foe - KCAL, KE and the wanta be's.

And - please do not tell anyone from here ...but I BET Kingstonian's would be pissed if I put "Sir John A" up there first...

I am looking into a more significant candidate - Laurier.

Let me know, if you would like to donate! Not for me ofcourse..................Laurier or your favorite P.M.

[Lydia]

But, speaking of ego...I am thinking of putting ME up there one day soon! - so I can be addorned by my foe - KCAL, KE and the wanta be's.

And - please do not tell anyone from here ...but I BET Kingstonian's would be pissed if I put "Sir John A" up there first...

I am looking into a more significant candidate - Laurier.

Hell no, Ill pay to put you up there. lmao. If anyone deserves to be put up there it is you. lmao.

I like Sir John A. heck im sure he was like us maritimers if the stories about him are true. lol lol

Laurier, I'm not so sure off. lol Don't know the story of him around here. lol lol.

[Dogma]

Try this link:

http://www.pc.gc.ca/lhn-nhs/on/laurier/natcul/natcul7_e.asp

[Lydia]

Thanks Dogma, I know that Sir Laurier was a great Canadian Leader. I don't know if he had a connection with us in Kingston?