Oh Dear! We fell off the rails last night - 2007-02-07

[posting]

Oh Dear! We fell off the rails last night




Jason here. Forgiveness please, I went to bed at 10:45 and missed the end of the Council meeting. Congratulations to anyone who could stay awake after that totally confusing and totally unnecessary discussion on naming the LVEC.

You have to have some sympathy with Mayor Rosen on this issue. Councillor Hutchison’s ill prepared motion to get some public input into the process caused a half hour of rambling around the issue when a bit of pre-Council work could have prevented it. Is public input necessary on this issue? Is the legacy of mistrust on the naming of the Market Square so deep that Councillors are willing to abdicate their duty of deciding on the name? Is there ANY corporation willing to buy naming rights after this clear distrust of corporations? Council has and continues to have the right to approve a name. And when or IF a name is approved it will be made on what Council feels is right for the city. So why the need for any discussion at all?

OK enough bashing. The presentations and discussion on the burning of tires at the Lafarge plant posted a new high on intelligent questions in an informed and uncontroversial atmosphere. Only Councillor Hutchison had anger in his voice. Other pointed questioners – notably Councillors Osanek and Schmolka managed to remain academic, much to their credit.

This is a most complex issue. It clearly isn’t over yet. The Loyalist group put their point well – that an independent assessor is needed to judge the stats on potentials emissions from the tire burning. The presenters from Lafarge were believable and I guess that is part of the problem.

So here in one meeting we had the best and the worst. Let us hope for more of the best.

[Bill(2)]

Well Jason - they went in camera to talk about a bunch of stuff before the council meeting ended, so the broadcast ended. (yes, I actually do watch it.) So you didn't miss much more.

However! Yes, Councillor Hutchinson needs to learn a few things - such as how to properly frame a motion, or amendment; when to put it forth; come to think of it a worse offender is Councillor Matheson - and he also displays one of my pet peeves - how to properly address his colleagues on council - this means using their proper titles, not their first names. It's not a casual get-to-gether to kick around a few ideas. This is where decisions on how to run the city are made.

Speaking of decisions - councils job is to supervise, question and direct for the good of the city. Not micromanage the activity of staff. More effective decisions would be made if they just took it up a few thousand feet.

Councillor Glover seems to come well prepared, a bit verbose at times (when everyone is on his side, he can stop convincing people that it is necesssary) and although I don't agree with everything he raises at least you know it's worth sitting up and paying attention to.

Councillor Schmolka - now there is a really strange situation. Yes she comes well prepared and seems to do a lot of her own research, but it really is hard to follow her line of thinking - most of the time. She prattles on, digresses from the point she is trying to make and for some reason feels the need to explain her explanations as she goes. Please, stop, think, make notes and when you present do so clearly and briefly. Once. Oh yes - to not allow any names that may be sexually suggestive in nature - well that is going too far. First of all it would be practically impossible, because given the opportunity just about anything can be made to be that way. Does this means that you would not like the complex to be named the Trojan Centre? Does the name suggest using condoms? Are they health care products or sexual aids? Or perhaps the Playtex Complex? After all, that is sexual, or is it simply feminine undergarments? See how silly this can get. Don't tie the hands of staff or yourself unneccesarily. Trust that they and yourself can be mature and professional about this.

Councillor Garrison - Why do you feel the need to play the bad-boy of council. As a teacher, how would you deal with such a disruptive student in your classroom. Former councillor Downes is gone, and there is no reason to step up to the plate to take his place. If you have a opinion it is your right and obligation as a councillor to present in a mature, professional manner - not by acting the spoiled brat all of the time. People tune out those who may sometimes have a very valid, legitimate point to make.

Councillor (oops) Deputy Mayor Meers - please brush up on parlimentary procedures. When Mayor Rosen asked you to take the chair so that he could speak you seemed to have to lean on your fellow councillors as to what to do next. I realise that some councillors seem to think that the Deputy Mayor job is just a figurehead position (so much so that I noticed he traded off his turn so that he could do it during his time off from work , but that's another discussion) but there are responsibilities that go with the title. Please be prepared. Having said that, at least you are being much more effective than your predicessor Councillor for your district. (Yes, I know who that was - that's my point.)

Oh well, who says that Kingston City Council meetings are boring. Some people think that they are supposed to just be rubber stamps of decisions already made (that might be so, but not everyone seems prepared enough to allow that) but I find that having a slightly demented sense of humour helps in watching the goings-on. Mayor Rosen contemplated the value of returning a previous practice - that being to provide all motions in writing before being accepted. Not a bad idea. But I guess some members of Council will need to take pen-man-ship lessons (anyone rmember those?)

Well, time for me to climb off my soapbox and get back to the fun.

[Dogma]

Even though you suggest more attention should be paid to preparation..I wonder if it’s more about "rehearsal" time of ones thoughts, rather than reading out their marginalized motions like robots. I also believe not enough attention or training (the new council) to the protocol of the council meetings, i.e. motions, submissions and general questioning has been given.

In fact; a mock meeting or two and go read the "council protocol" manual to me seems rather 19th century. And leds to shortcomings and or on the job training. To expect one to immediately become a pro - partimentarian around the horse shoe in 2 months seems rather simplistic.

Yes, some seem like they are winging it, but the suspect training and the fact that many have young families, work and no political experience may also contribute to your so called lack of "parliamentary aspirations" for Kingston.

Kingston is neither Queen's park, nor the Capital of Canada. And never will be. These are ordinary people from a small community that have a passion for their community. They are "real" people. They certainly will not be bidding for any Federal or Provincial appointments. (So, get real)

You do make some valid points with Mr. Garrison. He's on the road again with his "conspiracy theory show”. (Go figure) His only contribution to any discussion is the fact you know he will look for any attention grabbing corporate conspiracy theory (going) and put his follower’s attention ahead of any quality, researched based agrument. Or he supports the backs of any other "lefty theorist" ideas that he naturally would align himself with.

But, I do wish to remind folks, his district was the lowest voters turnout this past election. If it had been the highest maybe he would be sitting at home watching council night - and what or how he and Downes got it wrong.

Councilor Schmolka - I believe has alot to contribute. I believe she is more strategic than you suggest. Yes, she is new, yes she is a non practicing lawyer, and yes she can be to "clarifying" without revealing strategy. But, I believe as a new council member she will/and has contributed with added quality, not quantity of BS like Garrison or Hutchinson. Watch out for her as being a fair leader.

Glover - I find him rather pompous. He seems like the old British guard with some pretentious and wasp attributes that make me cringe each time he goes on about "accountability". Yikes - can he stop spending so much time (listening to himself) with his long winded "throne speeches", and more time listening to others around the ring? I doubt it.

The idea of motions being submitted before hand. Is probably a good idea.

Infact; if on the agenda and a motion is intended, who would grade the motion submissions? Harvey? Eek..that would be bias, do you not think?

Computer word programs and email would be the standard for submissions. PS - they have been around for sometime now. They are more efficient and more practical (You should try it.)

To speed things up further, instead of two questions only allowed per council member, or motions that are read and debated for endless periods of time.

Why in the world would they not use a time limit on discussion, or questions debate for each motion? I do not get it. It seems that they can go on, or take their time speaking to a motion or friendly motion etc.

In any "meetings" I have ever been in where there was an agenda, people come prepared - knowing that they have e.g. 5 minutes to speak on each item. This always led to less blarney, and more effective use of time, and frankly a higher quality of debate.

If anything it would force Garrison to cut down his platform (and bring out some quality questions) rather than conspiracy his nonsense.

Hey, they and you would likely be in bed before ten!

Likely would be good for the ones (unlike you) that need to contribute in the morning - at a job.

[Lydia]

We all saw how city hall deals with naming rights. Anyone with a few dollars like Mr. Springer had can BUY the naming rights. Our City policy on this sucks. I believe that the naming of Market Square shows how the public feel about the city’s policy.

Since it is the CITIZENS who will attend the Arena for events it seems reasonable for they to HAVE INPUT. I say INPUT not the FINAL say. For Councillors who find it offensive then these councillors should have not be on council. It is disgraceful for any so-called councillor to be fearful of their resident’s input.

Thank you Rob Matheson for having the guts to suggest that the public have INPUT (not final say) I agree with Cynthia Beach when she said the final decision would go against the city’s naming rights policy. It only shows why the public distrusted previous councils. The public always said that those councils could not be trusted and could be BOUGHT.

Thank you Steve Garrison for letting council know that a POLICY CAN BE CHANGED FOR THE BETTERMENT OF SOCIETY.

If someone wants to HIDE the fact that they would want their names on a project, then what else do they have to HIDE?????? This is so stupid. Why not simply collect the names of families who wish to have naming rights and then have the public vote for their favourite. Is it REALLY that hard for influential people to let the public know that it would NOT be a disgrace to ACCEPT naming rights????

Councillor Ed Smith said public input should be an option consultants could discuss with bidders and see what they want to do “so we don’t put up roadblocks to potential naming.”

Finally Ed Smith and I are on the same page. I agree with him fully.

Councillor Mark Gerretsen. Said Instead of having the final result voted on by the public, residents should be given a chance before the final vote to have their say

Maybe the public would WANT to honour the families or individuals whom have contributed to our society. I would think that naming rights should be a PREVILEGE. not a BOUGHT RIGHT.

[Lydia]

[B][Speaking of decisions - councils job is to supervise, question and direct for the good of the city. Not micromanage the activity of staff. More effective decisions would be made if they just took it up a few thousand feet.
/B]

The residents have all seen HOW NOT MICROMANAGING STAFF has costs our city plenty. JUST MAYBE IT IS TIME TO COUNCILORS TO KNOW WHAT AND HOW COSTS OF PROJECTS ARE CALCULATED. MAYBE MICROMANAGING WOULD HAVE SHOWN THE CITIZENS EXACTLY WHAT THE DIFFERENT PROJECTS HAVE AND WILL COST IN THE FUTURE.

Dogma, I understand fully why you hate the conspiracy theories. I actually agree with you on this. I don't believe in conspiracies happening at all. I don't believe that Council or Staffers have that in mind at all. However, it doesn't show respect for the residents of the city that either trust the people. It only shows that Council or Staffers have little regard for the people of this city. Try being fully open and stop being scared of what people will say. You and I both know that there are positive and negatives in anything and any decisions. Present both sides and let the shoe fall where it falls.

What is your fear of micromanaging??? Voters ask for councilors to make decisions on FACTS AND COSTS not just because someone in POWER wants things HIS/HER WAY.

Isn't it funny how people in power get threatened and start throwing sexual or female issues around to intimiate people???? I found it offensive how you presented your naming rights.

[Bill(2)]

Dogma (who ever you are) - a few thoughts in response.

First, City hall may not be (and is not) Queens Park or Ottawa - however the members of council, new and otherwise, all asked for the job, and therefore should be prepared to do the job properly. This is with respect to ongoing procedures during council meetings. Further to this, the Deputy Mayor role was again provided to volunteers, who should be prepared to step into the role properly. The fact they they have jobs, studies and/or young families are all legitimate points - but again they knew that going in. Balancing their lifes with the roles they wish to play in the community should (and I would hope for their own personal sanity / family lifes) be part of making the decision.

With respect to Councillor Schmolka, it is not the job she is doing that I am dissapointed with, but how she is going about it. I agree, she will probably shine during the current term of council and beyond - but her presentation style needs some work. btw - I was under the impression she is a returning councillor, not a rookie. If I am mis-informed, well then I stand corrected.

To clarify, motions from the floor (amendments etc.) should be made in writing, but not be required to be submitted in advance. The issue that has come up in several meeting are the disjointed, wandering motions presented that are practically impossible for the clerk to record. By taking but a moment to write down what you say in your motion would allow the mover to clarify the thought, and properly frame the motion.

Council procedure does limit each speaker to five minutes during debates, and two questions when questioning a presentation. However, when everyone has had their turn, then the entire routine starts again. Until all speakers / questions have run their course (unless the question is put, but that is getting into parlamentary procedure, which we won't go to for now.)

Finally, before you make comments such as: "Likely would be good for the ones (unlike you) that need to contribute in the morning - at a job." please know a bit more about me. I work out of my home. I run my own business and work a few jobs outside of this. I like to think I contribute a fair bit. And at least, I don't hide behind a moniker.

[Bill(2)]

Naming rights are a way to help fund some of these projects, without going to the public purse. I don't believe the issue is naming Market Square after the Springer family, but rather the terms of the naming agreement. Fixed terms with guidelines (such as is being done with the Regional Sport and Entertainment Complex) make a lot more sense. Naming rights given for reasons of appreciation are a different thing. I feel it would be difficult to treat them both as the same.

[Bill(2)]

Micromanaging? - There is a big difference between effective managment and micromanaging - I've experienced both. I agree, councillors need facts and figures to make effective decisions - but they don't need to tell staff how to do their job or worse, do the job for them (unless they are trying to make a point.) Councillors are the civic senior managers of Kingston. They are there to make decisions, as to set policy. Staff is there to impliment policy. It helps to keep this in mind. (and yes, as senior managers the councillors need to be ready to change staff if required - sorry, it goes with the territory.)

btw - apologies presented if required. It was not my intent to offend, merely to point out how silly things can get. Would it help if I add Stanfield to the list? After all, is it a family name, mens undergarments or whatever you can come up with. My point, badly presented I guess, is that there comes a time where you just have to be mature about things - and not legislate / madate things that allow no openness - yes I think that the fear of being 'Politically Correct' is too overwhelming sometimes.

[Dogma]

To clarify, motions from the floor (amendments etc.) should be made in writing, but not be required to be submitted in advance. The issue that has come up in several meeting are the disjointed, wandering motions presented that are practically impossible for the clerk to record. By taking but a moment to write down what you say in your motion would allow the mover to clarify the thought, and properly frame the motion.
I entirely agree with you "Bill 2". And I am glad and "educated now" in the current process timelines (i.e 5 minutes, and two questions each of such matters.

I agree the "wandering" aspect of some motions..and thinking on the fly, or winging it at the meetings for the clerk to be responsible for - is highly unfair and unprofessional.

And also can appreciate the advantages of having your own business. (if clients are not summoning you to their doors at 8 a.m.) You can take advantage of the easy morning with a cup of java still in nights sleepware... I know the "advantages" of your own business. But, maybe I was to cool. So, my apologies.

I guess I was eluding to the fact that councilors (most) have day jobs to show up to. (You comment they knew this going in) Maybe this comment has some merit..but I for one see such people with to much on their plate, and have more of maybe an understanding way anyways of..ones obligations (both public and private) and appreciate the effort..and not be so matter of fact.

Lastly; I am just suggesting a few processes to get them home earlier to their families and bed. (i.e Helping, fairly) Not putting them down like children.

I suspect a few would also have some "fresh thoughts" running through their heads after council - more likely than most of us that can turn it off like the remote and head into other obligations without a thought of showing up publically next week until the late hours.


With respect to Councillor Schmolka, it is not the job she is doing that I am dissapointed with, but how she is going about it. I agree, she will probably shine during the current term of council and beyond - but her presentation style needs some work. btw - I was under the impression she is a returning councillor, not a rookie. If I am mis-informed, well then I stand corrected. You are incorrect - she has never run for this council. She is in the learning curve. So, give her some rope. She is going to be one of the better ones. Mark my words.

Can I ask - who is the "bean counter" personality on council. Can anyone answer this one? If you can't you may need to work on your interpersonal skills. "She" drives me nuts, with her calculations and monotone, a matter of fact speeches!

I like - is it Lisa? I call her the little "firecracker". Definite lefty militant!

Naming rights - hopefully corporate from outside of town. This should cause a fuss!

[Lydia]

Naming Rights from purses other than public are already available to anyone starting a new business venture. This is where a business or a business owner put into an enterprise all the finances and thereby deciding on how to run that business. i.e. Eatons, Irvings, etc.

However, once the public is asked to have governments fund enterprises or once the public purse is open to establish an enterprise of any kind. Then the public should have a say in who has naming rights and thereby allowed to give opinions on the type of terms that will affect naming rights.

I just don't think that it is fair for someone to have naming rights on publicly funded projects. However, that is just my opinion, right or incorrect (never wrong) lol lol. Any development that the City of Kingston creates should have public input on naming rights BECAUSE it is not privately owned.

I believe that Kingston does have a few highly respected, highly community minded, and highly influencial people who should not have to pay to be appreciated.

Now if the city wishes to SELL naming rights for projects then there should be open bids. The people should be informed about who wants the naming rights and also what rights the winner will receive for purchasing those rights.

I am not against the city selling naming rights, however, I just believe that the public should be made aware that these naming rights are up for sale.

I fully agree with you Bill that councillors don't NEED to tell staff how to do their job at all. The city staffers are highly educated and highly capable of their services. It is only when information isn't flowing freely or openly between staffers and councillors that there is a problem. I have witnessed many times where staffers withheld information that was asked for by councilors until a decison was made on a subject. Shouldn't the councilors have all the information pertaining to subjects BEFORE making decisions on them. Kingston councilors were known as the yoyo councilors. Voting for something then voting against the same things they voted for and then again voting against them.

I personally don't know many councilors who wanted to change staff, at least I have not ever heard of this happening in the last seven years I have been here.

I accept your apology and I understand that your intention was not to offend. Thank you. However, if you do add Stanfield to the list i will still be upset. :p :p After all I believe in equality offending is equally upsetting :p

What do you mean about mature about things or politically correctness??? Neither I or Dogma would agree to that. lol lol. I much prefer the alternative especially at my age. lol lol. Hay wait a minute. Dogma have you been trying to be mature and politically correct and allowed me not to be??? lol lol

[Dogma]

Lydia; I suppose anything is possible.

Although have you noticed lately only maybe 5 people comment on this site anymore?

I think this site has to change: its name to.......

Kingston Electors (with special guests Lydia and Dogma)

Or better yet Kingston Electors & Community Issues....

Would you agree?

[Lydia]

Hell Dogma, Someone has to keep it going lmao, At least we have Bill on here now. lol

[Bill(2)]

I am not against the city selling naming rights, however, I just believe that the public should be made aware that these naming rights are up for sale.

Agreed, always. But the final decision is made in Council. That is their job. As decision makers they need to make the best decision based on the information available to them at the time. This means that sometimes decisions needs to be made without 100% knowledge, understanding and command of the situation. - Sorry kids, that's the job. Not easy, but it is what you signed up for. You commented later in the post that you witnessed staff withholding information until a decision is made. Well, if that's true, then that is a discipline matter, up to and including termination depending on the situation.


What do you mean about mature about things or politically correctness??? Neither I or Dogma would agree to that.

Council needs to take this under advisement - the specific issue was Councillor Schmolka's concern that a corporate slogan "Just do it!" had sexual innuendo. Geez - I thought it was meant as a call to action - get up off your butt and become active, exercise, be fit - after all they were selling athletic footwear and accessories.

Have a pleasant day!

[Bill(2)]

Although have you noticed lately only maybe 5 people comment on this site anymore?

This is the nature of forums. Open discussion and people move on in their viewpoints or enthusiasm. Or in how they are treated / accepted by the longer-term contributors. I've seen it over the too many years in IT. And I've seen it here. I made posts in the past to generate discussion and well, not much seems to have started. I guess people will debate what they want to debate - funny that.

[Bill(2)]

Can I ask - who is the "bean counter" personality on council. Can anyone answer this one? If you can't you may need to work on your interpersonal skills. "She" drives me nuts, with her calculations and monotone, a matter of fact speeches!

I like - is it Lisa? I call her the little "firecracker". Definite lefty militant!

Bean-counter ? - My guess is you are referring to Councillor Smith, followed closely by Councillor Hector. Regarding Councillor Hector, I'm still watching her. She seems to be attentive to detail and follows along well, but hasn't made a significant stamp yet (as far as I've seen) - I'm giving her time. Now Councillor Macleod-Kane - I think that she got in over her head the first couple of council meetings and seems to have backed off. Good for her for learning. Again, I'm watching her for a while.

Councillor Osanic - another study in progress. In early meetings she was all up in arms asking about the status of a specific tree located in a corner of a development area, even had the picture of the tree. Sorry, wrong venue. And don't expect the Commissioner to know the status of that specific tree at a meeting. OK, so I was disappointed in her, but since then she seems to have settled a bit - one more that I am watching and waiting on.

[Dogma]

Bean-counter ? - My guess is you are referring to Councillor Smith, followed closely by Councillor Hector. Regarding Councillor Hector, I'm still watching her. She seems to be attentive to detail and follows along well, but hasn't made a significant stamp yet (as far as I've seen) - I'm giving her time. Now Councillor Macleod-Kane - I think that she got in over her head the first couple of council meetings and seems to have backed off. Good for her for learning. Again, I'm watching her for a while.No its not Ed. Its Hector. She has that personality traits to use words with measurements: i.e data etc. including short, calculative senteces and remarks. Her character traits: (especially when stressed) will not be dominated by "caring, sharing and softer interpersonal messages"....she is not a very good political personality.

Its about facts, and proof...for some...such as Glover interpersonal leanings. For both - It is rather about "micro economics to them, rather that getting the full understanding of an issue". They will tend to listen best and be much more interested in the numbers, stat's and information related points.

I hope they learn to be less about "a matter of fact" personalities...than what I have seen.

Built in bias's because of ones personality (strong traits) are not leader material. Vicky she has a balance of knowledge based facts and a more human, softer caring personality. That makes the best leaders! Mark my words.

And I believe - that Kingston Electors - the name - has handcuffed the forum.

It should have been (always) Kingston Electors & Community Forum.

...to strengthen its broader marketing interest, and extend its current forum interest.

[Lydia]

It should have be (always) Kingston Electors & Community Forum.

Excellent points.

When I first heard of Vicky, I was quite upset with her until i meet her in person. Now, if she ever ran for Mayority in the next four years, I believe she could possibly be the next female mayor.

Her words can sting when necessary and she is quite open to hear different opinions. She has a softer personality, is highly educated, highly intelligent and not easily intiminated.

While Bill is watch the female councilors, I will watch the male councilors. lol lol. I already know them and think they are all great. (Even Ed Smith who I would like to smack around from time to time lol)

I think this will be the best group of councilors we ever had, however only time will tell.

[Bill(2)]

No its not Ed. Its Hector. She has that personality traits to use words with measurements: i.e data etc. including short, calculative senteces and remarks. Her character traits: (especially when stressed) will not be dominated by "caring, sharing and softer interpersonal messages"....she is not a very good political personality.

Ha! My original thought was Hector, then Smith but then when I thought about it and realised that I hadn't seen enough of her in action yet. So, you and I will disagree. For now. Time will tell.

[Bill(2)]

I think this will be the best group of councillors we ever had, however only time will tell.

The best group - well let's give it a bit more time. If I had the opportunity I'd mix and match a few but that is not the nature of the game. And it's too early to tell how well the entire group works. btw - I've been watching them all. Sorry to disappoint you.

[Lydia]

Bill, I think you are hoot, You are never a disappointment at all. A pain the the backside maybe but never a disappointment. lmao. However, from one pain to another at least we all will express our opinions not just sit back, complain and do nothing to change the situation.

Whether for or against something, someone, etc. Both sides are ALWAYS necessary. After all NO BODY IS GOD not even me. :D :D :D :D Hay watch it i can read minds. :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Dogma]

Bill - I see you are in some kind of agreement that Hector will be dry, flat and mathematical in her speeches.

I can hardly wait to heckle her through my T.V. !!!

Or maybe I should just get a life! On Tuesday night..?

Yes, Vicky is the best there. Hands down.