Thursday Night at the Harbour: KEDCO Meets the Citizens

[posting]

THURSDAY NIGHT AT THE HARBOUR



KEDCO MEETS THE CITIZENS



January 4, 2007


Jason here. Were you at the public meeting on Thursday evening to discuss the composition of Kedco? You must have been. Everyone else was. A packed hall greeted the nominating committee. And what a meeting it was! Completely free of acrimony. The conspiratorialists stayed at home or held their tongues.

It is interesting to think about why this meeting was so different from the hundreds of others that have been held in the name of consulting the public. It might be that citizens regard this council as a clean slate. It might be the holiday season. It might be – too radical to think about – that we have turned a page. From now on comments will be helpful, considered and useful. Dream on!

To get back to the subject at hand. Consensus is that a small board is better than a large one – 8 members seems to be optimum. The number of Council members should be reduced from 4 to maximum 2 although many thought that there should be only one council member and that should be the mayor.

No one challenged the need for a group to handle economic development. No one doubted that the business community should be a major presence on KEDCO. No one challenged the belief that the quality of life in our city has a great influence on economic development. BUT, there is division on how the quality of life concerns should filter through to KEDCO.

Should the board be made up exclusively of business people or widely representative including labour, arts culture and sports groups? Or should these groups form part of an advisory committee or should KEDCO itself have committees on which these representative could sit? Or should the membership cycle through the various groups?

Idealism in full throttle, all agreed that members should have superior analytical and decision-making skills and be willing to work toward consensus. It is clear from this that limiting the choice of members to applicants may not bring the needed skills. Should a search committee be formed? Should a headhunter be hired? How do you test for superior analytical skill?

The committee might not be closer to a decision as a result of this meeting but the city surely is.

As a footnote it was great to hear so many with an academic background in economic development among the 38 speakers. One did notice however that they were all emeritus. Are current professors loath to speak publicly?

[Florence]

One of the interesting comments during the meeting was that KEDCO should be benchmarked. This is interesting as it might rescue KEDCO from what I feel was an overwhelming belief that if it is only structured properly it will succeed. Does anyone know how one would benchmark such an organization?

[Dogma]

It is certainly clear that people are finally getting serious about rearranging KEDCO in a reasonable fashion - without the usual conspiracy theorist. Indeed; I am sure they will have their day, but initial public consultation is always a reasonable first / and hopefully only a first step to at least "brainstorm” ideas...which in this case, was generally the main event

It has always been a standard practice in business to only have a max. of 8 persons on a board, any more you get little done in a reasonable mandate. Infact, 7 is best for voting deadlocks. One council member is required on the board. Especially; when they have little business experience on this council.

Benchmarking - well there are many ways to do this. But, this is a publicly owed board, so there will always be interference by politics’ and interest groups. How you control them and their mandate is an issue. As I have heard from many council members - "why cannot the public just let us do our jobs?". And I agree - I am suspicious on the arm chair rights of the general public / interest groups to influence, hand tie or evoke their "tax payers rights" upon elected officials of a democratic society.

One way to benchmark - because Kedco's budget is set by the council (duly elected) - and it is reasonable to ask for an audit of organization - it maybe a good thing to do this first. Then you can find waist, efficiencies and a true picture of the organizations needs. And not just sign the cheque for what ever funds are asked for. This would stop the conspiracy, and arm chair theorist from interfering or stoking the local media, thus the general public to question or interfere with the transition.

ROI - return on investment. What is a reasonable ROI in this situation?

1 million budget = 5 million in investment in the community per annum?

It certainly seems to me a more reasonable figure needs to be mandated.

Yearly reviews would be another way to help assure investment in economic development for Kingston is being well managed.

Unfortunately, as in most "public interest organizations", I have noticed this (yearly review) as very difficult on the staff of the organization.

And I have also noticed because of this "micro management style" many experienced staff (contract generally) leave after a few years of both uncertainty in the organizations public budgets and their yearly contracts reviews. I think this style of benchmarking effects morale.

Again; its great that so many people had a chance to view a public forum, (academics aside) but I hope we do not fall into a "consultant" myopic mentality from i.e. how many flowers we plant in confederation basin to what kind (and how much) toilet paper we put into our public washrooms. And then review once a year.

Just get on with the applications and have this completed so they can get on with (their) work at hand. And from other recent local business closings and the North American economy slowing - we have little time to just "consult".

[Lydia]

Just think how wonderful this meeting was. Thank God for the new councilors who were not afraid to be proactive. If it was not for them this showning would never have happened.

It only shows that people in this city actually WANT Kedco to succeed but just are not happy with previous results. I must admit that this year's board actually have accomplished more than what was accomplished previously.

With this meeting the people in Kingston have shown them that people are willing to support them as long as they are OPEN and accountable.

I agree with Dogma, Accountablity is not so hard to figure out. If you hand Kedco One Million and you get 3-4 Millions in return we should be happy. I believe that Kedco has shown the City Staffers and Managers that they really have to hand Kedco more power to bring in and set up Businesses in this city. Don't tie their hands with red tape but don't give them free rein without accountablity.

I for one am very encouraged with this council and Kedco.

[macphail]

I think that council is going about this the wrong way. First figure out what pies KEDCO should have its fingers in and then determine the board composition. Judging from many of the speakers at the meeting, this is foremost on their minds.

It was an interesting exercise and I am thankful that council invited public input; however, I personally don't consider the evening to have been an overly productive one.

Cheers, Derek

[Farley]

It is certainly nice to be consulted on things that will directly impact Kingston on the whole. I for one, am whole heartedly for "transparency".

As for benchmarking.. perhaps even collaborative benchmarking, to really partner the City of Kingston with Kedco.

My sincere hope with such a new bunch of councillors, is that we can now avoid further Paradigm Blindness (continueing to think that the way we do something is best because it's the way we've always done it).

[Lydia]

macphail = It was an interesting exercise and I am thankful that council invited public input; however, I personally don't consider the evening to have been an overly productive one.


Okay, tell us what you would have liked to have seen that you didn't. Personally i think was much more productive than anything I saw before. I do agree with you if you mean that council won't listen to the speakers that night. However, it certain showed the people that this council will at least listen and It also showed Kedco that there is still a whole lot more that they need to do. I say give them a chance, they inherited the mess, let them clean it up and I believe that they will. Only time will tell.


Good Point Chuck!!!

[macphail]

The purpose of the meeting was to determine board composition. This is putting the cart before the horse as there seems to be a lot of public concern over what the role of KEDCO is/should be.

What if the City reduces the funding of KEDCO to its previous levels? How will that affect KEDCO and what role will the City then play? If the City isn't a major contributor, should they have as big a say in KEDCO's board composition?

I guess the discussion during budget time will give some indication as to how much the City will continue to support KEDCO and what role KEDCO will play based on that level of funding.

Cheers, Derek

[Peter Walker]

Some comments:
1.) The usefulness of the meeting. I thought it was well-run -- one of the best run of any such meetings I have attended. Kudos to the chair for:
a.) organizing the order of speakers in such a way that people do not have to stand in endless line-ups at a microphones
b.) timing the speakers, and enforcing the time limits courteously but efficiently
c.) keeping the speakers on track regarding the question, and re-directing speakers back to the topic when they got off on tangential issues.

The true test of the new council will be seen when they decide on the board composition.

It was clear from the meeting -- while a few speakers spoke of a board make-up that would result in a large board, the clear majority (and an even vaster majority of those speakers who spoke from experience with boards) called for a small board.

It was also clear that there is a strong direction to council not to appoint themselves. Except for Bob Clark (early KAEDC chair), nobody with experience in such matters desired to see councillors (other than the mayor and maybe one other) sit on the board. And Bob's only purpose for having a 50/50 board with councillors appears to be so that council would continue to support KEDCO. He made no reference to councillors being able to add any constructive skills or knowledge to the board. Barry Gordon said it best regarding councillors -- the fact that they have been elected to political office does not mean that they now have skills they previously did not have.

Will council listen?

Since there is never unanimity in the community on such issues, whenever council makes a tough decision it seems that those with viewpoints council "decided against" promptly accuse council of "not listening" -- when in truth council did listen -- they just listened to all viewpoints and then made a tough decision some disagreed with. In this case, if council does decide to appoint many of themselves to the KEDCO board, they will truly leave themselves open to the charge that they only heard what they wanted to hear and that the public meeting was a waste of time. Let us hope this council makes decisions as well as they ran that meeting.

Regarding benchmarking -- this is a very tough issue. It is not valid to "benchmark" based on $1,000,000 budget in '07 should yield $5,000,000 investment in '07".

As David Rutenburg so wisely pointed out (and as has been verified in success stories like Raleigh North Carolina), the results in '07 are based on the efforts since '97. It takes 10 years of consistent efforts without bouncing from strategy to strategy. I understand KEDCO/KAEDC worked with Lyreco for a decade -- it was last year that the shovel finally went in the ground on this very large investment. I also understand Kellogg's worked with Trenton even longer.

The biggest factor that is necessary for successful economic development is, quite frankly, beyond the control of KEDCO. It is the top-down commitment and leadership from the electted head of the government (in our case the mayor).

(In the case of New Brunswick, it was the premier. They advertised "1-800-MCKENNA" in economic development trade journals -- if you dialed that number, it was answered "Frank here" if the premier was in his office and not in a meeting. New Brunswick is not strongly properous everywhere -- it is Atlantic Canada -- but check out Moncton and St. John! -- but it took many years of "top-down commitment")

The developer behind the large apartment buildings on Elliott Avenue and along the river on Montreal Street told me that, when he decided to build on this former industrial park land, he approached the then mayor and planning staff. Staff foresaw several "roadblocks" to the development. The mayor listened to all points of view and then turned to staff and said "this is a good development -- make it happen". I think everyone agrees the mayor was right -- these buildings provide much needed quality residential apartments in a formerly depressed area.

This was the last mayor (he is now our MPP and the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing) until our current mayor who would make such decisions promptly and issue such clear directions.

I had to feel some sympathy for a former KEDCO staff person who told me one day that he had just had a very frustrating afternoon. He had some investors looking at making a significant retail property investment in the north end near highway 401 (which now has no real grocery store, since the closing of IGA). He was hosting the investors, and introducting them to the mayor. The KEDCO official then related to me how the mayor spent the time telling the investors why the sort of retail space they were proposing was all wrong, and would not work.

They never came back.

What did Barry Gordon say? The fact that a person is elected mayor does not make them an expert on retail mercantile space. It especially does not give them more expertise than investors who already own millions of square feet of such space, and know what works for them as investments.

Without the appropriate head of council, KEDCO is fighting with one hand tied behind its back -- and remember David Rutenburg's comments on the time frame required for efforts like KEDCO's. Given that, since Mayor Gerretsen's retirement in 1988, KEDCO has only had a strong and decisive head of council to work with for the last three years, they are to be complimented for their effectiveness.

So -- benchmarking.

I don't know how -- this is the sort of "strategic" issue that a knowledgeable board will have to discuss. If somebody has ideas, I would like to comment -- but this is truly a case where it is easier to scramble the egg than it is to lay it. Before I come up with some ideas on how to benchmark, I would want to hear more ideas. I know that short term results are not the way to go.

[Lydia]

The KEDCO official then related to me how the mayor spent the time telling the investors why the sort of retail space they were proposing was all wrong, and would not work.

They never came back.



You made a beautiful example of voices that were listened to but never HEARD. This was very obvious to me when I attended a few Advisory/Steering Committee meetings. When advise is listened to regardless if someone is for or against something the Steering Committee MUST listen with a hearing ability and make decisions that stand without changing their decisions. Once the Board of directors (who ever is appointed) hears both the pros and cons of any ideas and make their decisions then the City should support them without having REd Tape Stop the process.

Like Dr. Phil always says no matter how you make a pancake it has two sides. No matter what issue you look at it, it always has two sides. When the Board or Council sees and addresses the Con side of things then they are open and things can be and will be smooth sailing for the Pro side to do things.

i.e. LVEC.

I agree with you Derek that it is alot left undecided but this meeting was to really see how the public response would be towards this NEW council and how people felt about Kedco. For that reason I think it was a very positive meeting (compare it to other meetings). Now the REAL work on the things you mentioned on here needs to start.

[Dogma]

I believe Peter is right on many points.

It does take years to establish a medium or large size business.

To measure over time 1 dollar invested to 5 dollars earned is difficult (especially with the public/voters such short memory the good results. And many here in Kingston are more militant to support COOP type businesses than any foreign or Global Corporate firms establishment. Especially on the waterfront, or associated with local developers. I can hear them now!

Getting back to the hows and whys - You must really look at Ireland the "economic success of Europe" - they did one thing that made the difference (by the the way so did McKenna) they lowered corporate tax. They also offered other incentives for long term type business growth. They also invested to support what the trends and types of supporting firms for larger businesses would need. There is no point entertaining large companies if you have little business infastructure to support them. It is a strategic long term investment.

There in itself is the main hurdle in Kingston. We have little industry, we cannot support large firms of 500 people or more without outside help. The highest growth of businesses is still in larger urban centers. T.O is growing with business faster than ever. When people say - it is an inefficient and traffic nightmare to to business - they are wrong. It is the best place. Simply because it has the histr=ory, perception, market and business infastructure to supply products and services to small, medium and large markets. All within 40 km of the center of the City!

We (Kingston) have realied on institutional, tourism and now retirement demographic trends - to support the economy and for much to long. And frankly our location to markets is (centrally isolated) We have little local "support businesses" i.e machine shops, fabricators, IT groups, engineering firms that could service medium to large businesses.

To say the meeting had no outcome is somewhat pesimistic.

I think it was and is a somewhat brainstorming session. And yes it could have been more of what Vicky S. had thought - an opportunity for the public to talk about ideas for Kedco future and criteria for applications for the board.

But, you really had to discuss policy first. i.e how many board members, funding pots, Kedco's role or focus and accountable measures.

I think most were covered in the initial meeting. So, I see that as a successful result.

Someone asked here - what is Kedco's role or mandate now?

Its perfectly clear - economic development. (locally, and regionally)

If that encompasses tourism, industry, IT or emerging market trends - so be it.

Do we have the people specialized and also the money to invest in each of these specific markets?

That is the question. Not what role Kedco plays.

The City should have as little to do with the "running" of Kedco as possible. That is not their role. They already run a public corporation..that is their focus.

The City may have a representative of council on the board, but that would be likely the Mayor, as Peter says.

But, only if (the mayor or City rep.) understand business, economic development trends - and more importantly focus on (keeping) business here
once they come.

All positive remarks - but a focus and reality check of Kingston is Kedco's first role.

[Florence]

I think I would like to direct us back to Rutenberg's comment about the necessity of creating a very strong thumbprint. (I guess footprint would be
the same thing) It is on this issue that the arts groups and the economic development people meet - or should meet. Let us not turn off those people who want to make our city look better, to make it cleaner and more vibrant. Right now our thumbprint is very small - it consists of a robust historic downtown area. I am so long in the tooth that I remember many who would have cheerfully knocked down every hisitoric building if anyone came in with money and wanted them out of the way. Insisting on good architecture and more imaginative suburbs might make Kiingston more distinctive and a better and bigger thumb.

[macphail]

I started to write out a big long response as it is apparent the points I was trying to make were missed by some entirely.

So be it.

Cheers, Derek

[Lydia]

Derek, We need your views, no matter who gets or doesn't get to understand them (that includes me). It is for the rest of the members to see your views. Please write the long version and put it out there. Our councilors need them.

[Florence]

To get back to Derek's comment about the cart being before the KEDCO horse. I agree that KEDCO's future depends upon the role Council sees for it and that funding may or may not follow. However I believe that because this was not raised in Council before the public meeting that there is an assumption that KEDCO will go on as before. If this assumption is not one made by all Councillors we will certainly see during the funding debate. However I think the decision is there already.

[BornAndRaised]

Yes, please do write the long version to clarify your previous response. Do not let others take what you have written out of context and make your comments twisted into something that you do not stand for. All points help make a better informed opinion, weather altered or reinforced.

[Farley]

MacPhail, I'm sure no one is intentionally missing your points. It sounds like your views are sought after, so by all means, please post your originally intended response.

As to "If the City isn't a major contributor, should they have as big a say in KEDCO's board composition? ", if one is following typical business rules, such as those with a company and it's shareholders, the bigger stake you have in something, the bigger your say should be. Ergo, the city's say in the running of Kedco should be reflective of their contribution.

[BornAndRaised]

Is the value of the new development considered to be only the tax revenues gained by the city? Are other factors considered such as;


The need for a specific development
The quality of life that it provides for the city as a whole
The economic spin off effects that result from a specific development
The provision of a support network that can encourage further economic growthSome of these examples will provide little or no tax revenues themselves however other future economic developments may fully rely on these developments in order to initiate.

These transformations can take several years or decades to fully mature and could potentially be the most valuable development in the history of the city. Peter is right about the length of time it requires to make very important advancements and if we keep changing the KEDCO composition then how can we maintain a channeled focus that can nurture the long term developments that are so important to us.

I am of the firm belief that it is important to have more than one council on the board to represent KEDCO at the council meetings so they can support the progressions being made by KEDCO. This may deter council from making "knee-jerk" reactions which may result in a loss of the effects of efforts made in the past.

[Dogma]

As to "If the City isn't a major contributor, should they have as big a say in KEDCO's board composition? ", if one is following typical business rules, such as those with a company and it's shareholders, the bigger stake you have in something, the bigger your say should be. Ergo, the city's say in the running of Kedco should be reflective of their contribution.To me this is not a traditional business board - it is funded by the public tax purse.

And I certainly do not believe "the majority rules.

To me this is a patriarch way of thinking. (Yes, they have a say...as a council member on the board, a vote / proxy..like a traditional board.

But, to say just because they bring more money to the table: "buys them influence"? Hmmm.. I never wish to hear that. Not on any board I wish to be on.

It would also "hand cuffing" the "elected business experts" initatives of the entire board, i.e to create a business plan for the community.

Example:

Because we have a career nurse council member on the board they alone can - stop or go ahead on a particle business plan iniative? We can just assume because they bring the funding to the table - they have a business background and training to make million dollar business decisions on their own?

Or even worse - through council debate?

Can you imagine how wrong this would be? How long decisions could take? That's like having 8 board members + 13 more at council to pass a business plan, now politically influenced by every interest group in the City! That's what we want to be funding?

I think not.

Just because (currently) it is funded by the public - as I have seen and heard many times - just let the board members (do their job) I do not want any mini management of the board by the public. The public know little the why's of expert business decisions and are (not elected) to make the decisions.

If they wish to - apply and get elected to the board. Other than that. Vote out the council to make changes to the political policies of the era.

[Lydia]

The public know little the why's of expert business decisions and are (not elected) to make the decisions.



Now Dogma, I want you to understand where I am coming from. I belong to no organization, group, or association of any kind other than a member of Kingston Elector's Website. I have worked as an auditor with companies just as Ontario Hydro, General Electric, etc. I have set up computerized inventory for various cost centers etc. I am now retired due to choice. I have seen how higher ranking management levels work and make decisions.

THE PUBLIC KNOWS MORE THAN ANY ONE COUNCIL, ANY ONE BOARD, ETC.
The public consists of our business leaders, social leaders, workers, etc. NO ONE GROUP KNOWS IT ALL. However, when a group (Council, Board of Directors etc, Listen and HEARS all views THAN THAT one group can make intelligent, honest, accountable decisions.

Many times, I have been correct and many times I have been incorrect (NEVER WRONG) lol. However, it is throught discussion and battling out (like we do) that truth comes out and prevails.

I have seen many STUPID HIGH RANKING, PROFESSIONALS with titles up theirs arms try to put down the ordinary CUSTOMER (Taxpayer) only to be proved incorrect.

I understand your position on many things, I just disagree with you when you say that the PUBLIC doesn't know what should happen. Last Tuesday's meeting should prove to us all. What I saw there were two very different groups. Those that are business experts and those that have not been considered part of the Business circle. Just remember You need BOTH the Business Owners/Developer and the Public/Worker/Taxpayer. and you better have both sides represented or you will fail.

I believe Kedco has the ability to CREATE INDUSTRIES in this city. Industries that could be our thumbprint that is ours alone. That is what we should all be thinking about.

Lets think about examples of what people need or could benefit from if ONLY we created it? (Did I mention that my uncle actually invented the Coal Miner's Lamp on their hats?) Where are our inventors anyway????????

[Dogma]

I just disagree with you when you say that the PUBLIC doesn't know what should happen. Last Tuesday's meeting should prove to us all.

Lydia - I appreciate where your going with this. But, I certainly did not say the quote above.

I said - the board should be independent from the public influence , i.e ongoing arm twisting agenda's, interest groups, funded proxy's and most importantly (mini management of any kind by any public body) over their mandate ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY SEEM TO BE MAKING PROGRESS..

I believe you are correct that no one person knows it all, nor one board..has all the answers.

But, if the public is behind this new intative, able to apply for,; a formal public procedure to form a Kedco board is in place.. all in the name of economic development for the region....lets follow the procedure as it is today ..

They the (public) should only be updated in terms of the elected board members, council member and the running success and failures that this organisation (run independently) has a mandate to comply with. If a formal business plan, or public policy is required to spell out Kedco's mandate over the next two years. So, be it. Other than that I would suggest they need to inform council quarterly on their progress or lack there of.

Here is something to remind people - of Eastern Ontario's job loses in the past 10 years:

Mahle Inc. Gananoque, eliminating 100 jobs.
Brockhaus Inc., auto-parts manufacturer , halved its payroll, slashing 85 local jobs.
Bombardier - closed plant loss 450 jobs
Norcom - closed plant loss 450 jobs
SCI - Brockville - loss 600 jobs
Alcan - since '86 - loss 1700 jobs
Zoca - loss jobs - 300
Ministry Of Transport - loss CUPE (contracted to private) - 75 jobs
Donpar - 1200 loss jobs

Total = 5000 quality, well paying jobs gone!

There is no time to debate - with the public of what needs to be done by Kedco.

[Florence]

It would be wise to keep in mind that there are many global/provincial/federal trends that local Economic Development groups cannot change. I assume there are parallel trends that could be ridden ( "A trend is your friend' - as we say in the financial industry).

KEDCO cannot influence the Canadian dollar's position relative to the US dollar. It cannot influence the price of oil. I don't know if it can influence the centripetal force of the GTA. It cannot influence the future of the big three auto producers.

I would be interested in hearing about trends that KEDCO could ride if anyone knows of any.

[Dogma]

Indeed there are trends:

i.e A high dollar affecting:

Automotive parts manufacturing
Tourism, travel
Building - residential / commerical


Oil prices, weather, population demographics, education, IT, diet, skilled workers, political ideology, Asian economic's, American dollar, Euro, logistic's, advertising, R&D, engineering....there are many "trends influences".

The idea here is to have the right people at Kedco that can be ahead of the "curve"..or who have experience and day to day "front line" experience - to know what are the trends in a given industry of career professionalism. Not the "general public" who for the most part do not know or have time to be more than arm chair experts.

e.g - Accounting yes has changed since Enron. Yes, if accounting was properly done...it could have saved jobs!

But, it is not in the same league as this Town's success as turning this region into a ghost town for the retired -instead of stemming job loss in such well know trends..such as in the manufacturing sector, or tourism industry.

Don't get me wrong Florence - I am sure accounting type personalities do have a heart - Lydia has stolen mine at many times - interpersonal sklls may not be your best trait, but I agree with your level head ideas on such matters...instead of my off the cuff remarks about the "reality of work or lack there of in this region".

Something I must ask though. Is it a priority to you Florence to have work in this region for the livelyhood of your family? or a priority? OR Are you retired?

You seem to emulate that.

[Lydia]

The idea here is to have the right people at Kedco that can be ahead of the "curve"..or who have experience and day to day "front line" experience - to know what are the trends in a given industry of career professionalism. Not the "general public" who for the most part do not know or have time to be more than arm chair experts.

Sorry Dogma, you are correct that last statement was not something you have said.

However, I FULLY agree with the above and in today's world like Florence mentioned trends is a better way to phrase it then my own way of speaking about inventor's ideas.

I would dearly love to see people who are futurists on the board. I also agree that experienced professionals should also be part of the Kedco board. Keep in mind that I don't just consider Presidents/Vice Presidents of corporations experienced professionals. They are certain a major part of professional people but I also consider anyone who has first hand directly expertise in fields of employment as professionals.

Who are the leaders in the different fields/trends of today's workforces. I also do agree with Dogma that we should allow THIS COUNCIL to make those judgements and we should at least honour their decisions.

There will be plenty of time to discover how the New Board of Kedco will fair out. The results will be in the pudding, so to speak. I have already submitted my list of people that I believe should be on there. Have you done that as well?

lol lol Surprise, Surprise, None of Us ARE on my lists lmao But I do think we would be great at it lmao.