Change threatens market areas in Kingston and London

[posting]

Kingston's Market Square redevelopment has created controversy with respect to renaming, cost and design details. But Kingston's market is not the only place in the world threatened by change. In London, the local council has plans to redevelop the Queens Market in east London.

Click here (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/176698/save_queens_market/) to see a short documentary, Save Queens Market, about the proppsed change in use of this market.

[Dogma]

Oh Gosh - change we can't have that!?

Frankly; if you understood the root cause of your opinions - you would know - that the closed door donation
in of it self was not the issue.

Unfortunately; the donation and its "strings attached" (we assume) had no policy in place
to both balance the need for the mandate to fundraise and what could be given in return say: "naming rights".

- for an example.

What should have happened is that (there was a policy in place - before fundraising started)

I would blame the fundraising committee and hertitage groups for this non policy.

Thus you could say: "yes we appreciate the donation" but we can only offer you these specific features as naming rights i.e the fountain, buy a brick, 1 week free passes to Feb Fest etc. - because of your kind donation.

- which infact most donations are made from the "heart". This is no different. - Only the way it was handled is different.

I would also restrict the donation - exclusively for a period of time say 10 years.

When no doubt maintenance and repairs would be required for the fountain - and the money would be there - no taxes to cover the costs. (Again; specific features of the square - that would be practical - to donate to.)

Please - when you comment about such sensitive local matters - have some sort of thought put towards it - not your personal conspiracy theories.

It helps no one and adds little to solving of such future decisions for our city.

Thanks you.

[macphail]

Actually, there is a naming policy. However, as we learned from testimony that appeared in the Whig, it was ignored as there was concern there would be too much opposition from the public and they wanted to get it done ASAP.

Cheers, Derek

[Lydia]

Change is great but at what Cost?
Donations are great but at what Costs?

Who are the people who benefit from change and giving donations??

Kingston people are not stupid they know who,why and where things happen.

Maybe if things were NOT DONE behind closed doors and Plans were made public there would not be the divided city that exists.

After all Kingston people are not STUPID, they would love to see change for the better. All they need to know is at what costs.

I would love to see change here. How about an open discussion policy on all subjects of interest that affects this city BEFORE THINGS CHANGE FOR THE GOOD OF ONLY A FEW.

[macphail]

Dogma: Your writing style reminds me of someone who was recently banned from this site. Probably just coincidental.

Cheers, Derek

[Dogma]

But Kingston's market is not the only place in the world threatened by change.

I guess my main observation was that your quote "assumes" that the status quo is right, but under some kind of "attack"..

If infact there is (some sort of policy) to deal with such donations - why would you then not mention it here and now?

The Whig's articles regarding the Market Square (redevelopment) was closed door is incorrect. The development was studied extensively and establish 20 years ago. And was shelved.

It has just recently been fine tuned for the costs associated with archaeology studies, current public safety requirement and fundraising purposes.

And this was fully disclosed publically including visual renderings, budgets, fundraising forecasts and timelines. The "Hardware" like any development (depend on budgets) i.e how many trees, benches, lamps, fountains etc. the budget can afford (at this time)

The development was approved by council and the public way before the donation was even offered.

The only "closed door" (with council members in attendance) was only regarding a 1 million dollar donation. Which I beleive was retracked?

And frankly; (as expected) the public was upset by this. Because of the possible "official name change". I agree this may have been in error, but it certainly had nothing to do with your ASAP theory.

I have also contacted many businesses in the market square area: who have been there for years and they say the market square "market days" on Thursday and Saturday are nothing like they were 20 years ago.


"Now its all about fake antiques and has little to do with local farm food" One even said: "you use to be able to get your meat slaughted right there". "Now its about trinkets and tourism, not about a (true public market) like in Europe". The link to London, England one of the largest cities in the world is not comparable to our small city market.

If you could provide the donation policy and when it was enacted, I would certainly appreciate any enlightenment.

Thanks again for your insights.

[macphail]

http://www.cityofkingston.ca/residents/recreation/arenas/lvec/namingrights.asp

This page has a link to the City's Naming Policy and Sponsorship Policy, both of which were approved in June 2004.

BTW - You're welcome EX-hibitionist. :rolleyes:

Cheers, Derek

[Lydia]

I guess my main observation was that your quote "assumes" that the status quo is right, but under some kind of "attack"..

You have "ASSUMED" incorrectly. If you knew me at all you would never think that I believe status quo is right or even under attack.


If infact there is (some sort of policy) to deal with such donations - why would you then not mention it here and now?

I didn't mention it because others have done so publicly and I thought you would know about it.

The Whig's articles regarding the Market Square (redevelopment) was closed door is incorrect. The development was studied extensively and establish 20 years ago. And was shelved.

It has just recently been fine tuned for the costs associated with archaeology studies, current public safety requirement and fundraising purposes.

Thank you for shedding light on development taking 20 years to establish. I didn't know that because I only moved there 6 years ago. Hum i wonder it if took that long to establish what the true costs truly were? By the way, Do you believe that any new ventures will take our Council another 20 years to get things done? I personally believe that the Whig does an excellent job on reporting things. Thank God for them doing so, it is the only reason the residents even get to know the things that happen behind closed doors. I however prefer KingstonThis Week or the Heritage.

The development was approved by council and the public way before the donation was even offered.

The only "closed door" (with council members in attendance) was only regarding a 1 million dollar donation. Which I beleive was retracked?
And frankly; (as expected) the public was upset by this. Because of the possible "official name change". I agree this may have been in error, but it certainly had nothing to do with your ASAP theory.

We agree on this and I believe, when someone like Mr. Springer chooses to donate to this city, that everyone should be excited and very thankful that we have people like him in our city. I also believe that the LVEC, Multiplex, Parks, or any other NEW projects should be named after people who are willing to give gifts of large donations. We should however accept those donations only when there are no strings attached.

I have also contacted many businesses in the market square area: who have been there for years and they say the market square "market days" on Thursday and Saturday are nothing like they were 20 years ago.

"Now its all about fake antiques and has little to do with local farm food" One even said: "you use to be able to get your meat slaughted right there". "Now its about trinkets and tourism, not about a (true public market) like in Europe". The link to London, England one of the largest cities in the world is not comparable to our small city market.

This is truly a sad situation and I fully understand why people get upset with the way things are now. I would prefer have the market square revert back to the ways things use to be 20 years ago. There are many places downtown where tourist can get trinkets.

If you could provide the donation policy and when it was enacted, I would certainly appreciate any enlightenment.

Now, you got me on this point.
Should we not have a donation policy, maybe we should create one in order not to undergo the same situation again.

I would love to see this policy enforced. "Anyone who wishes to donate funds, without conditions, to the city should be recognized and honored.
Naming rights should be allowed for NEW projects"

However, If you choose to read about how people felt about this situation in the previous comments on Kingston Electors then try the search tool on here and really learn what i have said previously and what others believed.

[Lydia]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh welcome back EX. lol lol lol


Thanks Derek for information. lmao

[Dogma]

Lydia from a "past ugly participant" that was banished from this chat room for definitely - pushing the limits of personal ideogical respect.

I obviously am regretful and hope to be more respectful of the "left leaning" theory and of course all members.

Again; my appreciation goes to Derek. Especially that he does not toss me out of here as fast as I have returned
from my cyber Siberian exile.

He has every right. And I am sure he will remind me of this.

But, thanks for the second chance. I will try to behave!

But, I will admit truthfully now, I will still challenge and also ask for evidence for members theories.

Which in my mind, was lacking in many respects not only here but in the general media and opinion columns. Especially discussions i.e LVEC leading up to the elections. But, I suppose that is human nature and I need to respect that too.

In any event; I will say I am very interested in this new council mandate or culture and the 6 men, 6 woman that have committed their time, family and professional careers to contribute to our fine community.

I support each and every one of them and respect their committment.

There I go again going onnnnnnnnnn..


Thanks again, really.

[Lydia]

I really do mean welcome back Dogma now that you are out of the dog house.:o

I will always respect your RIGHT to disagree and challenge. I will never take things personally because after all it is only our opinions and not always the way others see things.

[Dogma]

So, Lydia what has been happening in the various forums since my banishment? Seems rather quiet since the election outcome.

I understand the council has taken a "left" turn - this should certainly make for a more social agenda?

In any event; Mr. Rosen seems like he almost lost with the splitting of the vote. But, one could also say between George and Rosen (more right wing players) they seemed to capture the majority of the votes although down from 2003? - 19,000 votes 2006

Seems ironic that the council is favored lefties. We have a weird voting process in this country.:confused:

[Lydia]

Actually Dogma, I think the people of kingston has it right for the most part. I still believe that Kevin George would have made a better choice as Mayor because of my own way of thinking.

I said it before and I say it now. We were lucky to have all three mayoriality candidates and therefore we have no losers.

I think that this was an LVEC election more than anything else. The pro camp won and I support and congratulate them. Since you have been one of the great supporters of the LVEC, Congratulations to you as well.

Just think of these next 4 years as an opportunity to find things to vent about lol lol. I know I certain plan on it lol lol.

As for this up and coming council, I am actually very very delighted with them.

Sara Meers, who i totally admire is a very clear winner. Steve Garrrison whom I try to encourage to run for the mayor's position has won. Leonore Foster an old time friend/foe lol whom I enjoyed fighting with and also admire despite our differences. Ed Smith whom I truly did not like but have to admire because he must be doing what he is there for. While campaigning in his district i was surprised to see so many signs on the lawns. Even thought I do like his views I do admire the fact that his residents support him.

All the other new councilors are people who I highly admire and Harvey better be really really good as mayor this time because if he isn't, I know at least one lady whom I think can beat him readily. My own Councilor Rob Matheson is the winner and I hope to support him in any way I can.

So much for my views, now how about yours?

[Dogma]

Politics is a mixed bag of tricks. You never know what will emerge and frankly how long it will remain the peoples choice.

Some points:

I was surprised to see the voter turnout so low, especially in Garrisons district.

I was surprised to see Meers win by so much. But, true contenders were frankly lacking. (Her pod cast was one of the best out of the entire lot though.)

In our region Mark Potter lost, got 30% of the vote, but at the all candidates meeting - it was rather a lions den, a blood bath and just a set up from the beginning to end. The poorly monitored debate by the McBurney Park Association looked like more a union rally than a fair and well run debate.

It was to me, not what our community should stand for. I hope we stand for some sort of respect and inclusion not a matter of what one believes in.

LVEC - well I am disapointed frankly. Technically, (the indoor conference facility) an important component to the LVEC was suppose to be at least 1500 sq ft. And now its down to 500 sq ft. I believe this limits the LVEC's conference capacity and undermines the LVEC's uses.

It absolutely should have been built at Anglin Bay...for the same cost as the North Block including 30% more available space, and parking to!.

This to me is very simple math, and to think to put it out at the 401 would not only contrbute to urban sprawl, but cost even more money to provide service along wth sucking the investments out of downtown. (Look at what the Rio Can is doing)

I am sure more downtown shops would close and or move to the 401 LVEC site. But politics and radical minds sometimes win the day. I really believe from my experience that the public were duped, rising taxation concerns and a general lack knowledge, and little communication from the Mayor and the City spokespeople on such a new concept for Kingston also helped spook the public into a do nothing mind set. That's where Downes capitalised.

The LVEC, multiplex, market square and Block D, I believe were "pent up" issues, delivered within two years! It is bound to freak out people or groups.

To fast for such a pensioned reliant, Government and retiring community as Kingston turns out to be...

Rio Can development...Gardner Road traffic - but for many in Kingston and especially the folks that are Country born and raised - thats a (major change).

But, whats done is done. I do not think anyones the winner here. So, I cannot accept any congratulations nor do I give it because of the outcomes.

[Lydia]

LVEC - well I am disapointed frankly. Technically, (the indoor conference facility) an important component to the LVEC was suppose to be at least 1500 sq ft. And now its down to 500 sq ft. I believe this limits the LVEC's conference capacity and undermines the LVEC's uses.

It absolutely should have been built at Anglin Bay...for the same cost as the North Block including 30% more available space, and parking to!.

This to me is very simple math, and to think to put it out at the 401 would not only contrbute to urban sprawl, but cost even more money to provide service along wth sucking the investments out of downtown. (Look at what the Rio Can is doing)

Keep in mind that even the people hear the Rio Can do not necessary enjoy the Rio Can. lol lol. I do see your view that the LVEC is not going to be all that great. It is better than nothing I guess. I am a great believer in Kiosks and how they can be used to further DOWNTOWN ACTIVITIES. Example.

We will be having "Magic Tours" or something like that and Queens, Kedco, etc have sponsored these tours of communities here in Kingston. Why are these Tours not brightening up our highways and Our Downtown Stores? I just learned about it at Curves. Thank God for Curves that is where I learn the most about what happens here in the city.

How many people would see a bright Kiosk on the 401 / Division Street and learn that we are going to have this???? What a beautiful way to tell people about our communities.

When I said have the LVEC up on the 401 I mean that it would be more visible there and we could actually ADVERTISE EVENTS on Kiosks so that people traveling would know about how wonderful our downtown truly is.

Oh well, I do agree things change no matter what. I still think you deserve congratulations in sharing your views, so enjoy being on the winning side this time, or i will just have to move into your community. lol lol lol.