Evolve to a Newspaper look and feel

[Civic]

The site might be more approachable if it had more of a simple newspaper 'look and feel' to it.

[macphail]

I think the site got pretty crazy during the election and that resulted in a real challenge for people to find and follow threads. With the election now behind us, it is time to look a ways for this site to evolve in order to keep citizens engaged.

Could you describe how a "newspaper look and feel" would work? Suggestions are greatly appreciated as we move forward.

Cheers, Derek

[Farley]

It did get pretty hard to follow during the election. As a new active participant, I would like to find it easier to navigate between the links as opposed to having to search so hard for certain topics. Other than that, it's a great wealth of information, although maybe some of it is very outdated and could be removed.

[Lydia]

I personally enjoy learning different views on topics. I believe that Kingston Electors has done a great job on providing different views. I personally would not want a newspaper view because we already have that with our Kingston Whig, Kingston This Week, and of course another great newspaper the Heritage.

What I would love to see Topics listed and sorted according to amount of interest shown to a subject by the public. Is there any way of sorting topics?

The newspaper can publish a person's viewpoint. Maybe Kingston Electors can use those viewpoints as subjects of interest. This would allow everyone to comment on those views (agree or disagree) and also contribute other views on the same subjects.

I would enjoy having our Councilor's views on topics being offered up for discussion on here. Usually people wait until elections to talk about issues, why not give our views throught the next four years.

[Pookster]

This was a wealth of information over the election but I feel there are too many threads and it gets confusing.
Great job on the election coverage!

[cain]

Hi All

The major problem with the site over the election was when people would go off on things that had nothing to with the thread they were in,

Pat…

[Damian Lloyd]

The look-and-feel of the site is consistent through the articles, but then changes abruptly in the forums. The change in colour-scheme seems particular abrupt. I know CMSes don't make design easy, but it can be done (I can recommend a designer experienced with them).

Pat: "topic drift" affects every online forum I frequent. It just seems to be the nature of the beast. I don't know that there is a solution to that one. I'm not a big fan of moderators policing off-topic posts; I'd rather let the discussion evolve organically. I've often seen people on forums object that something is off-topic, and suggest that the poster who wants to talk about that start another thread; sometimes that reminder is all that's needed.

[Lydia]

The major problem with the site over the election was when people would go off on things that had nothing to with the thread they were in,


You are correct Cain, people do go off topic at times, in fact, I tend to do it without really knowing when I do it. (Call it old age)

Sometimes, it only seems that way because others do not understand what is prompting them to go out off topic.

All that is needed is someone like yourself stating that they do not understand what the person is trying to say. Then clarification or an apology comes on here.

Sometimes the mind wonders. lol lol (call it old age ) :D


It is great to see suggestions coming on here letting the moderator know what we want. I know that the information is great appreciated.

[Damian Lloyd]

Full disclosure: I am the current editor of Independent Voice (formerly titled PiC Press), since 1991 the progressive, indepenent, community paper of Kingston. I'm also the webmaster of the Voice's site (www.independentvoice.ca (http://www.independentvoice.ca/)). I took down the discussion forums because nobody was using them, and direct people to the Kingston Electors site as the local place for online debate.

Regarding a move to a more "newspaper look and feel", what about closer ties or some kind of partnership between Kingston Electors and the Voice? I don't know what shape such a relationship might take, but the two groups share many common concerns, and might benefit from sharing resources as well.

[macphail]

Hi Damian:

At a recent meeting to discuss the future of Kingston Electors, one of the ideas brought up was a closer tie with Idependent Voice / Pic Press as well as other local writers who may wish to submit articles as opposed to being regular contributers in a web based forum. What that relationship could be is as simple as the posting of articles on a regular (and timely) basis and having discussion flow from that...or....who knows?

With the election not far behind us and the holiday season upon us, my mind isn't fully focused on "what to do next", but I would welcome the opportunity in January to sit down with others on this site (those outside the Board for KE) to discuss the direction we should take.

So stay tuned and don't be hesitant about contacting me should you wish to discuss things over a cup of coffee.

Cheers, Derek

[Lydia]

Wow What an idea, Can you image, Honest discussion on topics that affect us and that local newspapers actually write:D :eek:

Just imagine, community input into important factors that affect our lives.

Damian Lloyd and Derek is 110% correct. I personally would love to see this merger happen.

You fellas better watch it, the world might actually start discussions if this idea actually caught on.

Personally, I would love to see this grow and prosper. Way to go gentleman.

[WillThird]

It is interesting to consider the merge in some way of the Independent Voice and the Kingston Electors website. A concept would be to incorporate the two and change the name of the website to possibly Kingstonvoice. This could greatly increase the amount of visitors as the site would not be just limited to municipal politics. While continuing to have a strong political aspect there could also be other areas of interest to the citizens and even visitors to Kingston. These could include posters experiences with local business such as restaurants, accomodations, and even retail stores experiences. As far as political interest there could be room for provincial and federal government concerns. Even posters thoughts on the concerns that interest them may prove to be also of interest to other contributors. If something really ticks you off or some experience restores your confidence in human nature why not tell everyone. Whatever is not of interest to the others of the online community would just not be responded to so would simply drop down the list. A scheduled and moderated online real time chat would be interesting. The paper and the website could mutually feed of each other for topics of interest, editorial review, article discussion, etc. while creating a venue for active reader response.
Just My Thoughts
Will W. Third

[Lydia]

I find it very interesting to think that a suggestion for Kingston Electors is a name change. Frankly, I would recent this idea. Kingston Electors have always been people who care about their community. We have Newspapers and Publishing Companies. I believe that if there would be a merger with the Independent Voice and if you really want a name change. I would prefer Kingston Electors Independent Voice. I don't think that the Independent Voice would want to lose their name either. When we wish to address topics that we read in the Independant Voice, that we give credit to the newspaper. Likewise, the newspaper can also indicate the subject matter being discussed on our website the Kingston Electors.

I agree that the site does not need to be limited ONLY TO Municipal politics. I like your idea of making this site of interest to the citizens and even visitors to Kingston. I like the idea that this site could deal with all aspects of people's lives, education, health, municipal issues, and any other issue that our residents have to deal with.

Advertisements regarding restaurants, accomodations, and even retail stores should remain with the newspapers and publishing industry. I really on my newspapers and publishing companies for that information.

If something really ticks you off or some experience restores your confidence in human nature why not tell everyone then I would like this to be of discussion on Kingston Electors.

When you said that Whatever is not of interest to the others of the online community would just not be responded to so would simply drop down the list, that does not make me feel good. My question then is who decides that (Me or You). Personally I think that if anyone has a beef and they wish to discuss this then they should contact the Kingston Electors Elders. Different topics of concern crop up at different times.

I do feel that all newspapers and publishing companies and our website could mutually feed of each other for topics of interest, editorial review, article discussion, etc. while creating a venue for active reader response.

Of course, our web members have always done that anyway and I see no reason for them to stop. Having the Newspapers merge with us would only make them and us represent the citizens better and for that reason I certain would welcome the merging.

[WillThird]

Lydia, I was of the understanding that we were asked for thoughts, ideas and suggestions for the future of Kingston Electors and our web site. What I wrote was only that. My only hope is that in two or three years from now there is not only a very small handful of people that visit and even far fewer that post to this site. I guess a reference site from previous elections will be interesting to read.
Just My Thoughts.
Will W. Third

[BornAndRaised]

The partnership of the two would be very beneficial as each could promote one another resulting in far more elaborate discussions. The great thing about this web site opposed to a newspaper is that the newspapers have great control over the published editorials resulting in limited information. The brainstorming sessions that occur in the these forums are much more thought provoking and proactive but it seems that there needs to be more people knowing that these discussions exhist. Perhaps the newspapers could add links to specific threads that relate to editorials that they publish and in return if anyone sees an interesting editorial they can open up a thread to form different opinions and ideas that can be eventully disseminated to people who have the clout to act on the ideas portrayed in this forum. Otherwise this forum will only be a place for people to vent their frustrations (not such a bad thing).

Any way we look at it there needs to be more people involved in the discussions on this website.

[Lydia]

Lydia, I was of the understanding that we were asked for thoughts, ideas and suggestions for the future of Kingston Electors and our web site. What I wrote was only that. My only hope is that in two or three years from now there is not only a very small handful of people that visit and even far fewer that post to this site. I guess a reference site from previous elections will be interesting to read.
Just My Thoughts.
Will W. Third

Sorry willthird, I came on too strong and I apologize for this. I fully understand that you were kind enough to express your opinions and I admire that very much. Likewise when i expressed the idea that I am opposed to name changes, i meant only that the members on here and the newspaper readers have a chance to agree on this. :D :D Looks like name changes around here are a sensitive subject, I didn't even realize it myself:D :D
I have a different hope, in two or three years from now I hope we have many more people who have a voice on here and are willing to post their own concerns. Too often, you hear people complaining about what our politicians do or do not do. How often do you think people are willing to even express their concerns because they don't feel heard by the people in power. We only complain and do our best to put our politicians down. We don't even come out to vote in large numbers because of the idea that nobody really cares because what will happen and there is nothing we can do to make our lives better in our cities.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against people in power. I am actually very much for them and god bless them all. We need them in our city. All that Kingston Electors has done is actually show those people in power what is truly important to us BEFORE they become subjects of dislike in the newspapers.

Again, Willthird, I am sorry for coming on strong and that truly was not my intention at all. My own brother is an editor with Transcontinental Publishing Company.

Born N Raised, You said it best, thank you for understanding my hopes and wishes for our Kingston Electors site. I would prefer to vent on here than be attacking people when I get angry at them only to get even with them for not letting them know why I am upset with them in the first place.

[Rob Matheson]

I definitely think that within these posts are some definite positive solutions that Kingston Electors can look at to become all it can be. I have always loved the idea of partnerships, as they involve like minded people and organisations working together for a common goal.

If The Independent Voice and Kingston Electors would like to work on partnering I believe that can be done while both retaining they're own identities and individuality. In the end it would benefit the entire community by having both strong and contributing to our overall informational well being.

It would be good as well to market this site to all like minded goal oriented organisations and individuals. Unfortunately though alot of people just don't like politics for whatever reason, that can change though, and Kingston Electors, The Independent Voice, and Fair Vote Canada, have an immense opportunity to engage our public. Keep up the good work and DO work on partnering it is key.

Sincerely,

Rob Matheson
City Councillor
Loyalist-Cataraqui
www.robforthejob.com

[Dogma]

Personally; if the idea is to ultimately assimilate into an existing left wing paper ideology (The Independent Voice) for the sake of a higher amounts of "hits" on our web site, I am against the merger.

All papers have their spin and political leanings. The Independent Voice is no different. From my study they have a radical “balanced view” on many local issues. Not to say their views on many important and confrontational subjects are not valid to think about. But for example; please read some of their main monthly writers such as Jamie Swift, over the past election year. (I would say his research was non existing and his personal bias's clearly motivated his writings)

I would just be afraid The Independent Voice may bring mostly anidotal, or misleading radical type research and less concrete research for topics that I for one appreciate and "depend" on from Kingston Electors (unbias) information postings. And not just the Voices independent writers agenda.

I would feel the same if the Globe & Mail, or THAT Magazine made the same offer.

If they were prepared to change their political leanings to a more balanced, informative approach to (public information) I think a limited joint venture maybe aone of the first "balanced media forums" in the country.

I would also expect the two parties to have something in writing first. I.e. an agreement that has to be confirming the “balanced and informative mandate” must be be limiting for both parties, i.e. specific timelines of the partnership, (for review each year) and an elected specific board /guidelines for all areas of the “web paper” especially for freelanced writers. I.e. if a writer writes an article say on Harry Rosen he must have proof and evidence and a balanced approach - not a tar and feathering and full of conspiracy theory with little or no proof.

I have seen this in the Independent, and other papers so called “independent format” (does that mean they can do and print what they feel is their view OR benefits their cause?)

I just do not wish to become the "Radical Kingston Electors". Without some specific guidelines that are fair for both parties and ultimately for the whole community - not just for ones expanded advertising revenue or radical readership following.

[Lydia]

if a writer writes an article say on Harry Rosen he must have proof and evidence and a balanced approach - not a tar and feathering and full of conspiracy theory with little or no proof.


Now listen here Dogma, I am the most radical of all members on here including you. lol lol

And personally I like the idea of tar and feathering people.lmao.

Enough about me. I believe that Robert said it best and I am complete for his view point. We need the newspapers to report honestly on situations as they stand. At Kingston Electors, we allow people themselves to tell us what they REALLY think about situations. We need both.

I think the newspapers and our website can merge together in informing each other of situations and ideas to solve problems. Because people tend to not speak their minds, too often issues are swept aside and mole hills become mountains. What i would love to see is members from Kingston Electors and Writers from Newspapers get to sit in on situations together.

Example of this actually happened at the Kingston Health Department on Portsmouth where there was a similar with guest speakers D. Ian Jansseen, His topic was Publice Perspective on the Obesity Pandemic in Canada and Nancy Dubois who spoke about various topics which I will inform you about on the link "Did you KNow" on our website. One of her topics is Community Strategies for Success dealing with Obesity.

The Media was asked to attend, Only one gentleman and myself even came and we represented the Media connection. Where were those other Cable, Satellite, Newpaper representatives???

My point is that media can get along and report on issues together and seperately.

[BornAndRaised]

Ah, the old tar and feathering gag..........what ever happened to that? Maybe if people still performed this act of rightiousness then the politicians would be too afraid to act in their own personal interest or blindly spend our hard earned tax dollars. Oops.....sorry, getting off topic here. So to drift back on the topic of newspapers and reporting honestly, the newspaper can only be as honest as it's sources no matter how hard it tries and that's not saying that all journalists are entirely honest(it's not a perfect world). I was privy to some first hand information of an accident from a very honest individual and the very next day the local newspaper had printed an article on the accident and how the rescue attempt transpired. The information did not match in the slightest. The witness to the accident that called the ambulance was not questioned by the media and therefore the media obviously questioned someone else who had a totally different perspective on the situation.........and possibly a fabricated, or embellished perspective since the witness to this accident said that there wasn't anyone else there to help. The moral of this story is there are always a multitude of thuths to any story....... the plain and boring truth, the interesting version of the truth that evolves through the constant reconstruction of a tale as it passes from person to person, and everything in between. One must take all the information that they read at face value and form their own opinions based on that. I like that people can express their opinion on this forum where it is subject to scrutiny and perhaps it develops into a better formed opinion that can be adopted by many. Please do so! :)

[Lydia]

Ah for days gone by, where you tell one person and they tell one person and by the 10th person we have 10 truths. :D :D

Exactly,Born and Raised, Whose truth are we to believe. At least on here we can examine a perspective whether we are for or against something. Heck we may even learn the real truth.

My Motto as always been: "Challenge me! How else will i learn when I am incorrect?"

In days gone people challenged one another, today they shoot each other or try to discredit them.

[Farley]

Sadly, in this day and age, many go for the easiest route, thus the shoot or discredit, rather than an honest challenge, which appears to require more effort.

Case in point, it takes far less thought and effort when defeated in your attempt to be elected to council, to have a "sour grapes" letter to the editor published bashing the winner, then to be gracious in defeat and offer a handshake of congratulations or a pleasant phone call to wish the winner well.

Sad really..

[Lydia]

Case in point, it takes far less thought and effort when defeated in your attempt to be elected to council, to have a "sour grapes" letter to the editor published bashing the winner, then to be gracious in defeat and offer a handshake of congratulations or a pleasant phone call to wish the winner well.


Wow are you totally correct. I could not agree more fully. As long as everything is fair and square with the processess of voting your comment is absolutely correct. I speak about situation that happen in other countries where elections are NOT done fairly to repect the will of the people.

That is the reason I voted for Robert Matheson. He welcomed his opponents on this site. He didn't run away or put down his opponents once. Keep in mind that the people who rain against him never extended the same graciousness back. Therefore, I am very happy he got elected.

Now Robert knows that I will agree to disagree with him from time to time and he actually welcomes that opportunity. Wow what a fresh change that is going to be as compared to previous council members. After all how will i learn anything from him on how ""incorrect I might be"". lol lol

[Dogma]

I have seen this in the Independent, and other papers so called “independent format” (does that mean they can do and print what they feel is their view OR benefits their cause?)

I just do not wish to become the "Radical Kingston Electors". Without some specific guidelines that are fair for both parties and ultimately for the whole community - not just for ones expanded advertising revenue or radical readership following.

I say again - I do hesitate to "do business" with anyone unless their is an agreement in place that benefits the mandate and integrity of "Kingston Electors". (No matter what their political paper slant is.)

I wish just balanced article reporting. (period)

i.e "writers that submit articles" on persons, or community initatives to have (the facts) in their public publications.

Not observations, not perceptions
- i.e a writers walk down Princess Street - for a "personal economic development forecast"
...I am NOT in favour of personal perceptions on these types of subjects...

I am speaking to if one (writer) wishes to submit an article i.e from the Independent Voice
- they must "walk into the local Kingston Economic Development Branch", do Internet/library research and submit/include the research regarding the community article or his/her subject. Such as offical Election results, data on population shifts, economic forecasts, tourism data, building permit levels, demographics, economic trends for the regions...etc.


I do not wish "conspiracy theory articles" that confuse and misinform the public (here or anywhere else)

So, to recap:

1) An "agreement in writing" - with a specific regulations, timelined
2) Proven - research on all article submissions i.e an appendix
3) An "elected" board
4) No conspiracy theory articles

[BornAndRaised]

People need to talk about what the facts mean to them and their opinions on why they feel that way in order to gain a solid understanding of facts in question. For example someone may feel that the downtown location for the LVEC will work because of the case in London, On was very successful in a downtown location. No matter how many parallel facts you may bring to the table to support this location it only takes one to cause the project to fail such as there is no place for people to park. Facts are documented data but the influences on that data are not always the same for each individual case. Don't let the facts cause a smokescreen to the other facts being ignored. Facts are definitly valuable but a great entrepreneur is one who makes educated risks based on their opinions of the facts before them. Opinion polls also are a valuable tool for politicians. Are they facts just because they are compiled into data?

[Dogma]

Facts are definitly valuable but a great entrepreneur is one who makes educated risks based on their opinions of the facts before them. Opinion polls also are a valuable tool for politicians. Are they facts just because they are compiled into data?

I could not disagree with you more. It is quite the opposite. Facts prove out the opinions - not the other way around!

Politics are 90% perceptions 10% facts.

You say: "someone may (feel) that the downtown location for the LVEC will work because of the case in London, On was very successful in a downtown location because a downtown location works in London, so it will work in Kingston".

(Your statement is exactly what I do not ever wish a Independent Voice PUBLIC article writer to write) It is based souly on perception...and not on any facts.

There is also no successful entrepreneur that I have ever met nor have ever existed that came to wealth based on "assumption of the facts". i.e he/she assumed the facts (to be true or false) Or as you suggest "opinions of the facts". I would say the lack of fact finding and research - 9 out of 10 times resulted in a failed business or venture. (and I have data that can prove this!)

Personal passion (fire in the belly) and the mystic are important to come up with a virtual idea, but to sustain a successful venture of any kind - thats another matter.

To fully encompass an issue you MUST do the research to prove, debate and listen to reason - beyond your personal experience or knowledge of said subject. I find it perplexing that you would not insist on a higher level of a professional writing using factual research for the good of the public interest. To not absolutely include research and comparison fact finding from experienced and expert sources to me is a disservice to the community.

But, I am not commenting on your level of newsworthness. I am again saying specifically to
(a joint venture) with the latter newspaper...and its history of radical writers.

1) An "agreement in writing" - with a specific regulations, timelined
2) Proven - research on all article submissions i.e an appendix
3) An "elected" board
4) No conspiracy theory articles

If neither of the latter is agreeable to either party, I would recommend the venture is flawed and something is to be gained by only one party.

[Lydia]

Facts: Millionaires became so because they had passion and dreams ot success. They never allowed people to tell them "Don't Do that because others won't agree with you. These millionaires became so because they DIDN'T follow someone's ideas presented as facts.

Besides, no matter how flat you make a pancake it always has two sides. Now there is a fact for you Dogma. Keep it mind that there is always two sides to everything and they are equal when it comes to FACTS.

There is room for merger to happen. Keep in mind how much financial waste happened because people study things to death instead of doing what needs to be done. The problem only occures when our leaders choose to ignore people's views. They listen to only one side of things.

Success is when you can listen to both sides of a matter or project and iron out all the difficulties. Millionaires are created when they choose to show the benefits and solve the problems before they actually continue with their ventures. Too often this doesn't happen here.

Yes facts are important but both sides have different facts and we lose everything when we steam roll over things.

[macphail]

A relationship with existing media(s) would be strictly for editiorial comments as far as I can see. A merger is not in the cards: Kingston Electors will either play the lead or it will be folded.

Furthermore, articles that appear are for the generation of discussion and therefore not expected to be proper research articles with full blown biographies and citations. People may disagree with the content of articles, but one would hope that arguements will be made in a grown-up fashion. Besides, even the citing of research/case studies does not validate a particular position as there may be an equal number of studies to disprove it (that is the fun part of stats...numbers can be tortured to tell you whatever you want in some cases).

As there will be no merger per se, there will also be no requirement for an elected board. The current Board is a group of civic minded individuals who do not have a direct say in the operation of this site. As things stand, David Jackson and I have agreed to see what direction this site should take and will be meeting in the New Year to hopefully make some final decisions, the first being whether or not to pull the plug on Kingston Electors.

While having a place for people to sound-off is a "nice to have", I personally would not keep KE running for that sole purpose. Instead, I would like to see KE become a tool for local residents to use to make Kingston a better place to live, to work and to play in, by providing information and resources that can be shared and used by all.

Is this possible? I'm not sure. I would hope that people want to use this site for more than just posting rants that the local papers refuse to publish or articles that are so far out there that even the fringe papers won't carry.

Come January, I hope that the direction KE takes will be more clear.

Sincerely, Derek

[Dogma]

While having a place for people to sound-off is a "nice to have", I personally would not keep KE running for that sole purpose. Instead, I would like to see KE become a tool for local residents to use to make Kingston a better place to live, to work and to play in, by providing information and resources that can be shared and used by all.

I totally agree with your sites intent.

Now, it is clear the "merger" offer will not be the case with Independent Voice.

I agree with you fully an elected board/group from both parties and a timeline of an agreement is not required now.

I am also glad you agree information/research based articles or notices will be the main site developments - (if you) decide to move forward with KE.

TBC - "misinformation articles" would not be nessarily allowed...
i.e with no appendix or basic references/research attached to ones article.

I have just seen to many articles by writers e.g Mr. Swift of Independent Voice - that are based on anadotal conspiracy "observations". And its not just me, several other local papers have commented on the lack of facts and gossip type or perception based media. (Our small town of Kinsgton certaily needs less gossip not more.)

Let us know, what you decide. I appreciate the update on your intent for the site. And best regards.

[Damian Lloyd]

Holy cow, Dogma, your hostility drips from every post! I presume from your statements that you would not object to a merger between Kingston Electors and the National Post? You may not like the fact that other people reach conclusions different from your own, but that doesn't mean they've got the facts wrong. (Speaking of which, just eg. it's not "Harry" Rosen.)

Nevertheless, Dogma does raise a good point: Independent Voice is an avowedly progressive publication, whereas Kingston Electors positions itself as an ideologically-neutral forum. That fact alone would seem to preclude a "merger" -- which I don't recall anyone from KE or the Voice suggesting; it was an organic part of this discussion as it evolved. McPhail's statement that "Kingston Electors will either play the lead or it will be folded," puts the final nail in that coffin. A merger ain't gonna happen.

I believe KE and the Voice address (broadly) the same constituency: people who are concerned enough about the issues of our time to discuss and take action about them. We're both trying to stir people out of apathy or distraction, and we both believe that citizens are capable of comprehending our world for ouselves, and don't have to leave decisions to a cult of experts. I think some kind of partnership could be mutually beneficial. KE and the Voice don't have to endorse each others' every opinion to support this more general mission.

As webmaster of the Voice site, I shut down the forums 'cause nobody was using them. I see that, alas, a similar disinterest affllicts the Kingston Electors site, to judge from the number of "Last post one week ago" or "Last post two months ago" threads. A handful of regular posters does not a vibrant body politic make. I think this is a shame; I want Kingston Electors to succeed. We need a local forum for discussion. How can we (all of us) make it work?

[Rob Matheson]

Lydia said it very eloquently no matter what facts your looking at there are two sides to the pancake. We all have a tendency to look for and cherry pick facts to support whichever side of an argument we are choosing to take. The key is to look at both sides and somewhere the twain shall meet.

As for articles and editiorials a newspaper format would be an excellent way of presenting things here, and then allow for debate on the news items of the day.

This site is excellent in providing a forum for discussion. I never did support any form of merger. I suggest again "partnering" with other organisations and community groups and all media, not just the "voice" to make this site all it can be.

It would be a shame to see this forum fold.

Thanks Lydia for your kind support during and after the election. I wish everyone hear a very Merry Christmas and a safe holiday season. A Happy New year to all!

Sincerely,

Rob Matheson
City Councillor
Loyalist-Cataraqui
www.robforthejob.com (http://www.robforthejob.com)

[Dogma]

Damian;

I frankly have only pointed out (if) their was a merger (as originally suggested) on KE "search for revitialization"
the following would likely need to be in place.

It’s called a partnership agreement. It protects both parties.

I personally use the BBC and Deutsch TV and their shortwave affiliates, as my main media sources.

North American "progressive or not" media (especially TV media) lacks the range, seriousness, research & depth for real public service media and international reporting.

I can only hope that North American's can one day appreciate that there is a whole other world out there! I hope the Independent Voice continues to bring us news and indepth reporting on many 3rd world issues. I agree there is not to many "progressive" left wing type papers in this country. You maybe the minority.

Try not to take it personally - its just a fact!

I would also suggest - you not pigeon hole your name: Change to: Kingston Electors & Municipal affairs!

[Lydia]

Damian Lloyd, I agree with you totally. I believe that both the Independant Voice and Kingston Electors can work together. I hope that I can be part of this process. It is a shame that no too many people wish to discuss issues. It can be an excellent site if people can use it to Learn about what interests them. Again we need to ask people what they would want. For me it would be
1: Health
2: Learning about different businesses either established or new business ventures.
3: Council Issues
4: Provincial and Federal Issues
5: Learning more about what different Associations in this city actually do with grants presented to them. ie. Lion's Club, Health Department, etc. Just think about it. Do you reallly understand or even know what associations are here that help people and if you do exactly what are their mandates?

[Damian Lloyd]

Mr. Dogma says "it's just a fact" as if his declaring it thus makes it so. I think the role, state, and responsibility of the media in our society is a vital but under-discussed issue. However, I think it may be off-topic in this thread. If others are interested in this subject, let's take it elsewhere (serious offer, not sarcastic; I've given the matter considerable contemplation and like talking about it).

On the topic of the future of Kingston Electors, it was a partnership with Independent Voice (http://www.independentvoice.ca/) rather than a merger that was originally proposed; the idea of a merger grew out of the original suggestion. I think an outright merger is not possible. The aims of both groups are broadly compatible, but not identical. Both groups are proud of their identities, and don't wish to see them subsumed within another organization. McPhail's declaration that Kingston Electors must be the dominant partner in any marriage effectively precludes merging with any groups that are not themselves in decline.

Mr. Matheson says, "I suggest again 'partnering' with other organisations and community groups and all media, not just the Voice to make this site all it can be." This sounds eminently sensible to me.

I don't mean to hijack this thread into a bilateral discussion. As I am editor of the Voice, the resource I have to offer is the paper (and then only editorially; the organization is governed by a Board of Directors). As I said earlier, I'm not sure what shape a relationship between Kingston Electors and the Voice would take. What can the Voice do to help Kingston Electors? And I'm not completely altruistic: What can Kingston Electors do to help Independent Voice?

Lydia's post was helpful: she listed five issues that are important to her. This helps me solicit future articles to publish in the Voice. What can the Voice do in return? Articles in the Voice often have a grey "Learn more" box accompanying them; would it be helpful to put in that "Discuss this article online at KingstonElectors.ca"? Or would that just be pointless?

I always say that you must seek objective criteria. I know Kingston Electors did advertise in the Voice. Did that lead to an increase in traffic on the website? I think we should look at the figures outside the recent election period, which will give an artificial boost to the numbers. But earlier this year, did the ads in the Voice lead to more hits on the KE website? If not, perhaps our constituencies don't overlap as much as I thought, and discussions of partnership are futile. (Or maybe the ads were poor, or mistimed.) If so, that's encouraging; it demonstrates that there is a connection between the two venues.

[Lydia]

would it be helpful to put in that "Discuss this article online at KingstonElectors.ca"? Or would that just be pointless?

YES YES YES YES. EXACTLY.

Thank you For understanding exactly what should happen in order to partner with one another. WE NEED BOTH.

Don't let Dogma's views bother you. lol lol. After all he is soooooooo mean even I like him. lol lol.

99.9 % of the people appreciate editorial experience in reporting issues. Dogma is one of the .05% that like to torment experienced edeitorial writers and I am the other .05% that likes tormenting the other .05% lol lol.

Derek and David will do their best and will make the correct decision on the Kingston Electors website. The more people show our website now much they enjoy this site the better.

[macphail]

The reasoning behind my belief that Kingston Electors must take the lead on any kind of partnership is that the appearance of neutrality must continue. It was this sense of fairness when approaching various subjects that lead to members of Kingston Electors being asked to moderate a number of candidates meetings during the election.

I wouldn't say my statement precludes any kind of merger. What it would preclude is a merger that would upset the balance that KE has tried to maintain.

I think there is a possible relationship with Independent Voice and seriously welcome the opportunity to sit down with Mr. Lloyd after the holiday season to discuss this further.

Cheers, Derek

[Damian Lloyd]

Derek, I will make myself available at your convenience for a meeting in early January with yourself and/or others from Kingston Electors.

You say that the first thing the KE Board will decide in the new year is whether or not to pull the plug. If it can be told, why is such a dire decision so urgent? Is imminent financial catastrophe looming, or is it just a case of insufficient return on the investment of time and attention, or is it a political feeling that KE is not delivering on its mandate? Knowing the specific questions the Board is being asked to answer will help posters here make more specific and pertinent suggestions.

[macphail]

Derek, I will make myself available at your convenience for a meeting in early January with yourself and/or others from Kingston Electors.

You say that the first thing the KE Board will decide in the new year is whether or not to pull the plug. If it can be told, why is such a dire decision so urgent? Is imminent financial catastrophe looming, or is it just a case of insufficient return on the investment of time and attention, or is it a political feeling that KE is not delivering on its mandate? Knowing the specific questions the Board is being asked to answer will help posters here make more specific and pertinent suggestions.

The reason for an early decision is that it would be disappointing to see the site on life support with little or no activity before becoming lost and forgotten in the electronic universe. If the site can't remain relevant, then have the plug pulled and make way for perhaps another site/group.

The question is: Can the site continue grow to become a useful tool for residents of Kingston that will be used and viewed on a regular basis?

If there are only a handful of people using the site between elections, there isn't much value in maintaining it. If it's just going to be for people to post opinions, perhaps one of the local medias should expand their forums.

Cheers, Derek