LVEC related construction & the end of sidewalks

[Florence]

How does one go from OHIP to Timmy's or to the ferry without walking on the road? Where have all the sidewalks gone? Has LVEC swallowed the sidewalks?
Can we get some back? Over to you Needs Fixing.

[Dogma]

Don't get me wrong...but I can only suggest it should never had moved from its original proposed site. Anglan Bay.

I know that does not answer your "concern"? or negative comment. (Hard to tell...)

But, it certainly was a much more appropriate spot than the North Block.

I really do not know how that condo group and Downes had the gaul to protest it - considering they and the local neighbourhood yuppies (Queens employed - CUPE) no nothing about LVEC's!

Kingston has never had one. And they frankly wish to live with no change. Fair enough but Kingston ain't Toronto.

Liberal Arts Queens prof's that live in the area - have guarranteed jobs - and are NDP forever. ..but

They have no idea that 2000 jobs have left the city. Or really care. (I should see them protesting about loss of real jobs, & the marginalization of people.) You would think?

Have you heard any job cuts at Queens in the past 10 years????? - Have they ever heard of downsizing? Or the rest of the world? I wonder if they really do care. - only ablout their world.

And this LVEC you complain about - certainly is not the "Skydome" that people (assume) Not even close!

And the newly built condo on Anglin Bay seems to not be a problem to them. Its infact larger, taller and uglier - than any LVEC. Their condo or 90's building frankly blocks the homes directly behind it, (that have been there for years) losing their site lines of the Bay, and that I am sure they wished they could have back.

How this condo was allowed in the first place is perplexing. The residence are very selfish and lack my respect.

And their concern for noise and traffic is reactionary, uneducated knee jerk response. - considering most concerts and events will happen during the late fall and winter when their windows are closed! And a good chunk of them are in Florida.

I also wonder what they expected by moving downtown in a city - that nothing gets built downtown? If they wanted peace and quite they should move the the burbs. Not to the heart of a downtown city! What will they protest when the Tannery and North waterfront gets looked at affordable housing and mixed residential and commerical? No doubt.

Now, because of the instiutionally employed cupe, and the condo wealthy retired owners - you and I have to live with the narrow sidewalks and no onsite parking.

All I can say is becareful what you wish for! Or support.

[Lydia]

And this LVEC you complain about - certainly is not the "Skydome" that people (assume) Not even close!


There is NO SKYDOME. I assume you meant (TED) Roger's Building.

Hum, I wonder if there will be any similar things happen to the LVEC. I hope not. My views are clear I am not in favour of the LVEC being on the North Block or Anglin Bay. Is there anyyyyyyyyyyyyyy chance that the LVEC could be built in Pittsburg County, North on 401 and Division or Sir John A???

Keep in mind the Multiplex is scheduled in the northern part of Gardiners Road. I think the Central part or Eastern parts of the city would be a great place.

When you tell us that there is a hugh Condo building built on the waterfront in Anglin Bay, you are correct with your idea that the LVEC should have been there, especially since the residents in most of Kingston didn't want the waterfront being tampered with. NOW i understand your views ( the new condo was not mentioned all that well in the newspapers during the debates.

[Dogma]

Correct for more than 20 years the "Skydome" in Toronto was its official name. Building began 5 years earlier and in 1989 it was offically opened. Then sold to Rogers Cable Co. in February 2, 2005.

But (in my mind) if Kingston's Market Square was changed to another name. What name would be recognised?

I am referencing the (Older Name) because the "quotes or references" appearing in the media, in varied opinion columns, especially the "letter to the editor" and articles issued in various papers (not only the Whig Standard) use the Skydome "senerio" as there general comparable to our LVEC.

Such as another newspaper in town The Independent VOICE - as an example: Mr. Swifts (a regular writer) compares continually in many of his articles, arguments against the LVEC. Refer to the "bombastic Skydome"....

Likely he figured it was easier to compare the Toronto "Skydome", because it is more recognizable in its history & problems, rather than (Rogers Centre) that has no history and no publisized problems.

To have the full ear of an audience (now living here from outside Kingston) are likely mainly from T.O.

The muliplex well I have no comment. I know little about it and can only claim its being built on industrial land, that may haunt us one day.

And the other suggestion to move the LVEC (I doubt we could afford to) I read in another local paper - the heritage it would be 10 million to stop or move it.

I do believe it is best downtown both for economic, environmental reasons let alone the foundation is already poured!

[JDAKINGSTON]

I am interested in your choice of name (DOGMA) which when used outside of religion tends to carry the implication that people are upholding their beliefs in an unthinking and conformist fashion. Are you implying this outlook of others or of yourself?

This is important for two reasons. First, I find it difficult to follow your train of thought, partly due to your writing style, and partly due to your presentation of your opinions, which may or may not be factually based. And second, with the tone, I find it difficult to tell when you are being straightforward, and when you are being sarcastic, so I have to assume most of the time you are being straightforward.

Certainly, I find your broad-brushed claims about those who had "gaul to protest" (gall to protest) the location of Anglin Bay
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglin_Bay )
and claiming "Liberal Arts Queens prof's that live in the area - have guarranteed jobs - and are NDP forever" are either intentionally misinformed or intentionally uninformed. You have the opportunity to confirm your statements with Queens' human resources about "guaranteed jobs". Confirming political affiliation would be more difficult.

The point of job loss really is not the issue on the LVEC placement, only on the building of it, and of course the continued operation of the LVEC. This gets to the real concern of jobs versus taxes. If the LVEC is not operationally successful, then the LVEC will be paid in perputuity by the tax system - homeowners and renters, and the small businesses. Queen's University will be inadvertantly affected, but not to the same extent as their employees. It will in turn affect the social programs in Kingston, and the services provided to the homeless, etcetera.

With regard to job cuts at Queen's, you won't hear about it. Queen's has for years simply not replaced retiring workers, or has attempted to convert (like the private sector) from full-time long-term employment to contract work to reduce overhead. It has shifted focus more toward business-friendly ventures (i.e. the School of Business, Health Sciences and the like.) And it has also shifted more toward contracting-out.

I certainly hope the LVEC does not turn out like Skydome - now known as the Rogers Centre - for which the cost of construction was $600 million which was paid for by the Canadian federal government, Ontario provincial government, the City of Toronto, and a large consortium of corporations. The original cost estimate was $150 Million. The Final Cost was $570 million.

Thirty-One companies each contributed $5 million for which they received one of the 161 Skyboxes for 10 years, 4 parking spaces (for 10 years) and a 99 year exclusive option on in stadium advertising. And after less than 10 years of operation, filed for bankruptcy in 1998, and was sold for $25 million to Rogers Communications. While there have been no publicized problems (in the past two years) thats not even relevant, unless you're saying that we shouldn't have any LVEC problems is we are willing to wait 16 years after building it, and sell it then for 4% of the $56 million it might cost. I think that your identifying the Skydome as separate from the Rogers Centre is naive. To me that would be analogous to attempting to separate the Great Depression from the Second World War.

Your comments regarding those responding with concerns about noise and traffic is also a reactionary and uneducated knee jerk response. Glass actually transmits sound quite efficiently. And since the LVEC will be completed long before the parking is resolved, and before the "third crossing", it may well be fortunate if the LVEC is not successful, simply to cut down on traffic problems. And if taxes do increase, those 'complainers' may not be able to go to Florida, and should have plenty of time to slow the LVEC - parking - crossing progress.

>> Now, because of the instiutionally employed cupe, and the condo wealthy retired owners - you and I have to live with the narrow sidewalks and no onsite parking. <<

Now that's just wrong! The reason there would be no onsite parking is not because there are wealthy retired owners. The retired owners didn't build the condominiums, just like they didn't build the LVEC. And narrow sidewalks are the purview of the City of Kingston. They make the choices on sidewalk width.

I do agree with three of your statements:

1) The multiplex well I have no comment. I know little about it and can only claim its being built on industrial land, that may haunt us one day.

2) I do believe it is best downtown both for economic, environmental reasons let alone the foundation is already poured!

3) All I can tell you is be careful what you wish for! Or support.


JDAKingston

[Needsfixing]

http://kingstonelectors.ca/forums/images/icons/icon8.gif Needs Fixing has been out of the province for a week but can now report that the first response has been heard from the city's transportation department who expressed regret at the inconvenience of the missing sidewalks. Needs Fixing had suggested that the transportation people walk the route to fully understand what has happened there. Clearly the walk did not take place because the department's response referred to a sidewalk (between Ontario and King, on Barrack) that simply does not exist. Cars are using this space all the time as they head towards the lake, preparing to turn right onto King.

Needs Fixing has also suggested (in the response to the respnse) that an "inconvenience" is something that lasts for a few days, not something that goes on for months. And snowclogged streets are coming soon - maybe not, maybe the white stuff will all stay out west this year? - increasing the hazard to pedestrians.

Bottom line at this point is that pedestrians are not really taken into account and that no improvements to pedestrian safety will be forthcoming during this prolonged construction period.

[Dogma]

JDA -

Thank you for your overall assessment of some of my main points regarding the LVEC.

(Obviously spell check is required on this web site and has been suggested.) I personally am not retired thus do not have all day to go over all of my comments - Do you?)

I certainly agree with some of your points; and appreciate your valid points concerning the LVEC.

HERE ARE SOME OF MY CLARIFICATIONS TO YOUR CONCERNS: Not in any particular order....

Although I know for a fact that retiring prof's are being replaced.. with full pensions in most cases... contracting for other staff is a reality with the opportunity for a full time position (in such a large employment facility) almost guaranteed after 2 years of contract work history (they can apply for internal jobs/status). That being said the prof's I am speaking of...are not of the retiring age and are cupe members. They also have &#37; 100 full benefit packages.

Their annual raises are also guaranteed.

Sure the university is probably acting more responsible now than in the past. I have no problem having all workers responsible for their tender and a more accountable atmosphere. Do you not agree?

I am not saying this is a bad thing, nor am I "broad brushing" as you assume - I am just suggesting they have (more protection) then any private business sector position in the area - especially for staff, management, or any admin. positions. There is no competition per say. Such as a typical manufacturing facility has.

CUPE members also tend to vote for union supporting political parties. i.e NDP. (I) believe it has influenced the council especially Downes...and his supporters (Labour/ and local institutional CUPE members of the area called Kingstown)...to vote against anything LVEC on many opportunities without due prudence regarding the actual facts from the initial task force and subsequent professional market & traffic study and the overall business plan. Of course more communication or public meeting could have been presented. But, I doubt in any way that this community would have had any more HARD "facts" to base decisions on. They CERTAINLY did have public input meetings, a valid taskforce report, regular council meeting discussions, lots of professional studies and a business plan.

The City even made you a visual model.

I believe the conspiracy theory of having one site location namely Anglin Bay was (to many) seemed somehow pre conceived and the naysayers jumped on this misconception as some kind of local business conspiracy. (Maybe small town gossip - or a true lack of understanding what an LVEC really is?)

Frankly; I anticipated this from the beginning.

I also would like to suggest the economic development by the "LVEC being downtown" directly influences the job market.

Investment fromlocal established businesses downtown and investments from outside the region will definitely result in more economic development. To say it has nothing to do with "job growth" is incorrect.

Kingston has lost most of its manufacturing or (private sector - well paying jobs) over the past 5 years. (I do not believe doing nothing to stimulate local business development, for downtown or in our industrial parks is an option I share with you.)

The naysayers generally use an "assumed comparison" between a 100,000 seat stadium i.e New Yorks new Stadium or "Skydome" that they example: to evaluate, critically argue and foster fear against our LVEC is further proof that little is know about these facilities - especially in Kingston. (Kingston has never had one...so what is their real experience? to assume this comparison? Did they not read the business plan? Or any of the LVEC reports? I can only suggest with the conversations and newspaper comments - they did not.

To compare the Skydome to our little rink is silly. There is no comparison in uses or there operation expenses. Any one that compares the two have no clue of the differences with "multipurpose indoor facilities" to giant baseball or Olympic "outdoor" stadium.

Some history:

"Sky dome" was built for Toronto - and its baseball team (their main tenants.)

The uncovered CNE stadium was their previous home and was at the end of its established timeline. It was discussed to rebuild, roof it, move or just do nothing. (Sound familar)

The problem was that the baseball industry was infact in trouble. Large player salaries, lower ticket sales and the unanticipated strike in the 90's, and cost overrums certainly did not help the Domes projected finances. Thus the situation some (not just T.O's) professional sports franchises found themselves in over the past 20 years.

Of course their facilities budgeting suffered greatly. I also believe Toronto's ego on having a world class team (North American really) must come with the "best and most modern/modular" stadium. Especially when Federal and Provincial and private companies supported it financially. As you rightly pointed out the estimated cost to build the Skydome (initially of 150 million was frankly a low ball estimate) ...How could any budget survive all the unknowns i.e an retractable roof? Especially because this type of building (with a retractable roof) was a first.

No one had built one before! Give us a break, please do not equate the building of the pyramids or the Sidney Opera house to our tiny LVEC its just silly.

I must add: Money also seemed no object for Toronto (the center of the universe) in the dirty 80'/90's.

That is also likely why some may be "spooked" at the thought of these "type" of facilities.

I would suggest our LVEC is now no more than a very small hockey rink with a stage. Directly resulting from the latter misconceptions the LVEC has been "compromised" by the naive conspiracy theories, stemming from militant taxation groups, local academics and of course the so called nimby's. I also believe the project was undermined by a lack of communication from City Hall. (And I directly contacted Rosen from the outset "that a spokesperson must be available to the public - especially regarding the LVEC")

Some Facts:

The Anglin Bay building was 180,000 sq ft. - and now @ the North Block its 130,000 sq ft.)
Their was avaliable Brownfield funding for the Anglin Bay site, that would have/ could have financed and redeveloped that location. There was no prior arrangement, or bias to benefit any land sale if the faclity was built on Anglin Bay. And there was no advantage infact (a disadvantage) to build at the Memorial Site location. The business plan clearly shows this specifically in relation to infastructure, local business supporting services, parking and as a "buried site", hard to find especially for transport companies to get in and out of during an event.

For the same cost. - 41 million certainly not 56 million.

I must ask you:

Would you buy a house that was 1800 sq ft. over an exact replica of a 1300 sq ft. for the same cost???

Another observation: the revised "available floor space" now @ the North Block for conferences and events directly affects the initial business plan financial forecasts and infact the original intent of this facility. (i.e. multipurpose functionality)

The Condo on Anglin Bay is infact owned by its members. And frankly run by a condo member board. They solely bought and have invested in their residence that both exceeds the LVEC height limit proposed, and cuts off the view of the river from generations of Kingston residence.

My main point is that the condo owners (whom are mostly retirees) built that waterfront condo facility expected a certain amount of undisturbed view and quality of life. (And I certainly can understand their intent.)

But,

I would not "expect" that if one decides to live downtown in a City, nothing will or can change around them. The Condo members letters (prove) their intent with regards to "their wish for a peace and quiet lifestyle" is well documented with their petitions, emails and letters to the editor. But, "their building" they live in my mind is frankly hypocritical of the LVEC location they have fought diligently to prevent.

I may have stating the event noise "periods" to educate the uneducated. And frankly your suggestion that windows eminate sound is truly niave. Vinyl clad windows with 2-3 panes thick are almost sound proof. I have experience with such things, so please do not hesitate to reconsider your assumptions.

Again; (my point) was - most of the events are in the period described and infact the Anglin Bay site is better suited for geographical and esthetic design reasons. This location is set below sight levels and the hill reflects sound away from the residences out to the water. The disbursement of the attendees would be much safer and faster than the North Block. Sidewalks and parking would also not be such an issue.

Anglin Bay for many reasons clearly stated: issues of economic, environmental and waterfront development including the Kingston's master transportation plan, reducing urban sprawl was and is the preferred site.

Traffic? What traffic concerns? I see little traffic issues in Kingston. I personally have never been in a major traffic jam here. I can say though the delays when crossing the one bridge is mainly due to urban sprawl to the east of the city.

I frankly do not support the new crossing. We should be building residences as proposed by a local builder on the West side of the river not the East. The Tannery property. Along the north/west waterfront.

As proposed recently: a mixed residential/commercial area.
- With low rise housing options, catering to low, middle and higher incomes.

Unfortunately, the brown field situation leads to issues around insurance, & possible unforeseen development costs which the city was asked to help with.

The City working with the local developer, waiving the 3 million owed in taxes for the property, and support if any issues arise from the brown field is needed.


But, as usual the city wanted a guarantee from the developer that they would be responsible (or pay for) (anything) that would be found as being toxic or beyond the "budgeted cost to develop" this area.


Not knowing the entire historical industrial legacy this property may hold.. is high risk for any company or community.

But, who is responsible? The public cleaning up their backyard? The developer? Both?


The City turned down the developer’s request. Initially. I hear now there was some sort of compromise.

Urban sprawl will likely continue East, the bridge cost (all) taxpayers will now have no choice but to pay for. I think your priorities maybe mixed up. To me the money would be better spent on cleaning up the Tannery property.

Do not blame the LVEC for traffic - blame ourselves that we want and fail to pay or be responsible for our future city growth and prosperity. The LVEC is a sound and reasonable investment. The bridge and Kingston's status quo is not.

I hope this clarifies some background that was missing in my first chat. And your initial comments of whats in a name is frankly questionable of this subject at hand. You also failed to link the reality of 2000 well paying jobs leaving the city, and this impact on our community. Maybe you are also retired? On a pension Or possiblly an institutional background?

I certainly hope you appreciate one that has a background with such facilities. I knew from the outset Kingston would find it difficult to even want to read the business plan, let alone understand the facilities service industry.


Your personal "dogma" that envelopes the LVEC debate obviously has some merit, but somewhat lack any proof to support your "opinions". Tabloid type information and your ideas surrounding social justice economics is frankly incorrect.

$ 175 million dollars is spent (per year) on social programs in Kingston. The majority of persons on social assistance are persons with health related, long term issues. The Federal and Provincial Governments support these programs, the City has little to do with the majority of funding.

Taxes, I have researched fully - Kingston & Canada per capita tax obligations compared to the rest of the world. (over the past 20 years) Is frankly, one of the lowest rates in the world. I would suggest your attitude towards taxation lacks any proof.

But, if wrong I would appreciate some of your specific "education", research or any experience you seem to wish to bring to the table regarding the LVEC debate.

[Needsfixing]

Earlier we reported the pedestrian difficulties trying to walk in the LVEC area where there are no sidewalks. We must thank Mother Nature for helping to provide us with safe travel routes - no snowbanks to make it much worse than it already is.
Some cars are also having difficulty understanding the routes - and have been obseved driving east along Place d'Armes towards the Causeway - neat trick as long as traffic is not coming in from the Causeway along this single lane!

[Dogma]

PLEASE see link below:

For the "real LVEC construction process & timelines" (updated monthly)

i.e. site construction, transport / parking criteria - among many other project details regarding the LVEC including:

1) Design Criteria's
2) By Laws & timelines
3) Construction & Design timelines
4) Parking locations, transport alternatives / pedestrian walks, accessability & long term planning alternatives
5) Traffic manipulation (construction period / and long term planning)
6) logistics (construction and for future events)
7) Noise bylaws (status)
8) HVAC and Interior Design features
9) AND any "significant" progress of the project the public needs to know...

So, if anyone has any questions, concerns or simply wants to stop being part of the paranoia...or rumor mill...


Here is all the information that is both "public and accessable" to (you) or anyone with any LVEC concern.


Site information is avaliable "to the public" (each month)

- at the following link.....or you can directly contact the City (or LVEC project manager in this link)

Here is the (second update):

http://www.cityofkingston.ca/pdf/lvec/Newsletter_02-06.pdf