Memorial Centre Revitalization Proposal

[macphail]

Posted on behalf of Wendy Erickson-Gray:

Would you like a 50 metre pool, the preservation of our city's long-standing agreement with the Kingston and District Agricultural Society, a revitalized Kingston Memorial Centre with a working road and pathways system, a recreational & entertainment centre and more respect shown to our veterans?

Well, here is an example of how that can happen...a bird's eye-view...

[Bill(2)]

Last Tuesday, hopefully not lost among the other discussions and briefings, was an update regarding the Memorial Centre revitalization. Not a bad plan, at least from what could be seen during the presentation. http://www.cityofkingston.ca/pdf/council/agenda/2007/A06_Rpt21.pdf

I was curious about a few things. First of all, did I read the chart correctly? Did it say that there will be a bunny hill? Why are we now providing a home for these critters so that they could from that location go forth an attack the gardens of the local residents. As well as least raisins for everyone on the sidewalk? Second, I didn't see a dog park area - you know, something along the lines of a free run area. - Wait, unless the bunny hill is for the dogs to get their exercise chasing down the critters. - This means that the proper name for the hills should probably be something along the lines of "Mount Hosen-Phepher".

Overall, I think it's a good plan. Maybe it will not only revitalize the Memorial Centre and Fairgrounds, but the local area as well. I don't live in the area, but when I pass through there it strikes me a being a bit economically depressed. If someone could help me understand, it would be great.

Thoughts?

[Lydia]

HUm, Bunny Hill huh, Don't mind the little critters as long as there isn't any Hefners amoung them :D :D :D

It actually would be a good place for a free area for dogs. Kingston could use one.

[Dogma]

MEMORIAL CENTER REVITALIZATION PLAN


Just for a moment, let us think of the City as a
business; spend it as we can afford it. Without
getting into the debate of the LVEC / Multiplex versus
the M-centre, what should be done with this site?

A golden opportunity to revitalize this vibrant
neighborhood could happen.

Regrettably; this 32 million dollar revitalization plan and its proposed Disney World façade is wasted money and potential for
the community.

If one would just consider what Toronto or Ireland
have done with similar community infrastructure, the
23 acre property would be a mixed geared to income and
market value housing community, with local businesses,
a retrofitted community centre
With an appealing park at its heart.

Affordable housing, local jobs, a possible daycare,
and other features from the original concept would be
supported (long term) with property taxes from the
site with a modest infrastructure cost to the City.

There are still many looming hurdles.

The Agricultural Society 50 year old deal, could
“fence in” any proposal.

Their recent saber rattling and sense of ownership of
this public property seems like they maybe biting the
hand that feeds them.

Helping the society find a new home is another
challenge.

Maybe kick in some money; if the society doesn't like
it, they know their options. But, if they take action,
they should know they maybe risking their permit.

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail.

Does the Memorial to our soldiers have to be on the M-
Centre site?

Could Lake Ontario Park be the new site to honour our
Soldiers?

Maybe put the current plan on a referendum ballot?

Regarding other local economic development plans the
proposal for the 401 and Division complex is slowly
moving forward. The market and traffic assessment have
concluded this area of the city has been under
serviced for years.

Let’s hope the anchor stores encourage not only their
respected business, but community capacity building, infrastructure and some
quality jobs for this area as well.

LVEC one notices is taking shape, a little behind
schedule, but for such a project it’s expected.
Notably; KCAL (Kingston Concerned about the LVEC)
recently published misleading statements suggesting low event bookings at
other facilities.

KCAL deduces “event bookings” for the summer months
are lower compared to the rest of the calendar year.

It is true summer holiday months are traditionally not
the “event” industries prime time of business.
Typically, the fall and spring events capture the bulk
of event business which is growing by 10% year over
year.

By the way, the supporting market data is in the LVEC
marketing and business plan. Maybe they should read it?

[Lydia]

Okay, Dogma, I enjoyed reading your ideas on how this community can become better and more vibrant. I like those ideas very much. There is only one problem as I see it between you and their community. The problem is your take on what the memorial centre really is. There are two ideas there. It doesn't take away from your ideas or theirs. It looks like you want the best for them as well as they do.

My question is this.""What is the most important facture to a community?" I would suggest that it is a common meeting place, a common place to entertain, a place to gather for discussions, a place to bring people together.
I am not sure but I believe that is why the group for the Memorial center and the community there are fighting so hard to keep and maintain (if not improve and grow).

As I see it THEY AND WE need both their ideas and yours to consider. Thank you for presenting another view which I believe that they should also consider when they are looking at their community.

Can you eat cake and eat it too?? YES YOU CAN if you take pieces and look at the neighbourhood as a Business and as a Home as well.

[Civic]

The major decision to revitalize the Memorial Centre has now been made. The plans, although not complete, are a step in the right direction. Suggestions to use the site for commercial redevelopment simply seem to ignore the long term needs for this type of community and park facility in our community.

The Agricultural Society has simply raised some planning issues with respect to fencing, the location of buildings, etc. Since the recent study results for the site have been circulated for comment it would seem entirely reasonable for the Agricultural Society to ask for clarifications at the planning stage of the site redevelopment.

[Dogma]

The major decision to revitalize the Memorial Centre has now been made.


Who says so?

The "current plan" or study with its very basic line drawing and ballpark estimate - is in NO WAY close to final.

And I must remind one that it still needs to be presented to council for vote and through planning.

I will certainly do everything in my power to stop this "Disney World" proposal. (Note: the facade that will be built on the north side of the building imitating some sort of Toronto EXPO centre would cost 1/4 of the "estimated" 32 million to build AND maintain.)

To me this is NOT were this communities "long term needs for this type of community and park facility in our community". should be even considered. (And I know where this ALL started...and it was well before the committee was even formed)

Nor - should public tax monies pay for a concept such as it is, especally the facade.

The proposal for the 23 acre property would be more sustainable as a PPP (public, private partnership) and if that includes providing subsidized housing in a very large green space so be it.

I see only blinders here from anyone who thinks a state of the art enviromentally designed housing complete for a mixed income bracket that includes a co-op business centre and day care, along with at least 10 acres of green space with many of the activity ideas from the "concept plan"...falls into the planning dept. category as "commercially developed"????

So, how in your mind will the (public & commerical developer) - "Disney World dream concept" PAY for itself and create some sort of LONG term maintenance program?

(Without asking taxpayers to fit the ENTIRE CONCEPT AND LONG TERM BILL?)

Has anyone asked this on the committee responsible to the city's master plan that sets out not only feasability studies but many connected studies, such as transportation master plan, enviromental and commerical planning - for such LARGE capital PUBLIC ventures?


The Agricultural Society has simply raised some planning issues with respect to fencing, the location of buildings, etc. Since the recent study results for the site have been circulated for comment it would seem entirely reasonable for the Agricultural Society to ask for clarifications at the planning stage of the site redevelopment.

The Society's history with regards to the (50 year "deal") and the fact that they have threatened the city (thus the public) for the past 3 attempts to change the fair site leads one to consider the volitile and sense of entitlement this group seems to have. (To think otherwise is just niave) I would suggest you read the paper over the past several years and the articles from their chairman (ladies).

They are certainly NOT "clarifications" that I would find enclusive.

Thank you for your opinions.

But, I am afraid that I find to much fault in them (as you may have guessed) to capitulate so easily...

Maybe try harder next time?

Here is an article to also consider:

Move the fair to the country
Forum - Thursday, August 02, 2007 @ 07:00

Re: the story "Fence controversy climbs into M Centre plan" (July 23).

Councillor Joyce Macleod-Kane complains of the concept plan for revamping the Memorial Centre site that "the midway is too close to the barns." She got it right, but she also got it backwards. The barns are too close to the midway. With all that space in the Memorial Centre grounds, why doesn't the agricultural society host an annual plowing match there?

I was raised on a farm in northern Alberta. Every year we scrubbed our Holstein heifers and took them to the local fall fair on the outskirts of a town of less than 2,000. Why do we continue to hold an agricultural event in the middle of a city, using facilities that stand empty for 51 weeks of the year? It's not a very sensible use for a city property that, the Whig's story suggests, is worth $2.8 million.

Kingston is surrounded by hundreds of acres of the most beautiful countryside in Canada. Indeed, there are thousand of acres of farmland within the city limits. If we could poll the cows and the pigs and the chickens (and the farmers, too), I am sure they would prefer to strut their stuff in a more familiar venue. And city folk? They too, I suspect, would prefer to celebrate their agricultural roots in the country rather than the city.

I agree with Kay Paget, who wrote in a letter to the editor earlier this year that "I lived on the Prairies and I don't recall seeing any barns as ugly as those located on the Memorial Centre site. To think they are in use only for a week a year. What a farce! They do not belong in the city anymore."

A good site for the agricultural fair would be a farmstead with a number of those those old board-and-batten barns to house the animals. These barns defined agriculture in Ontario for 300 years and they are rapidly disappearing. What better place is there for an agricultural fair?

In the Whig's story, agricultural society president Connie Selle said a tractor pull is one of the fair's main revenue sources. A tractor pull in the centre of Kingston? What next? A rodeo?

Paul M. Roddick

Kingston

[Lydia]

In the Whig's story, agricultural society president Connie Selle said a tractor pull is one of the fair's main revenue sources. A tractor pull in the centre of Kingston? What next? A rodeo?



:D:D:D:D Hum, Doesn't Calgary have that reputation?? Not sure but isn't there one in the that city that is world renowned???:D:D:D

[Dogma]

Lydia -

Your kinding right?

The Stampede in Calgary verse Kingston's Fair is like (sort of) comparing Fort Lunenburg in Nova Scotia to Fort Henry!

Fort Henry pales...in comparision.

[Lydia]

OKay Smartie, Dam it I agree lol lol lol.

Something like the Dog show this weekend. lol lol.

Dogma, I fully understand where you are at this. Wouldn't it be nice if we rose to the occasion and really put something on that is world renouned.

Having a Fair in the center of town happens even in the best of our cities. Take a look at the CNE Fair. If only things were done properly and not half-asseted.

[Dogma]

I spoke to someone who read my Whig article outlining my modest concept for the Memorial centre.

They said they did not like it... I said what part (there were 3 thoughts).

He said the Memorial Centre concept II - to have a small sustainable community put there.

I said why...he said because he wants his property value to go up with the 32 million dollar "concept I".

I said has it not gone up already?. Your road is new, your hydro lines, sewer has all been redone!

He still thinks his retirement home - that he probably wants to sell way over the purchase price (to but a 1.5 acre home north of here) is his rational to go with the 31 million dollar Disney World.

That is how many feel in that area. (And generally in this society)

I find it capitalist-pigish - and my taxes do not support such narrow thinking.

[BornAndRaised]

I certainly hope that that person was not serious. I am inclined to think that the average person in that area would just prefer something there that would provide a better quality of life. A better quality of life will ultimately mean a better property value which directly translates into higher tax bills/revenues for homeowners/city respectively. For those who wish to stay and enjoy the benefits of this improved quality of life they will pay for this over the period of it's use. For those who decide to sell and retire some place else, they should not benefit from the improvements at all. It is the duty of the elected official to ensure that our tax dollars are used in a responsible way(Fingers crossed). 32 Million of taxpayers money for any park is way too much. What is this world coming to?

[Lydia]

Hay, Hay, Hay you two, what is wrong with you two anyway???

What is wrong with 32 Million for a park anyway??? :D:D:D:D What is wrong with Disney World anyway??? Geez can't they dream?


HUMMMMMMMMMMMMM, By the way Where is that money sitting in our Municipal coppers anyway?????? I want to know!!!!! And here I thought we didn't have a cent for development anywhere!!!!!:D:D:D I also know that this city as a whole has many places that need that money as well as the Memorial Park community however they being open about what they want and my neighbourhood and others don't see to have it together like the McBurney and Memorial Park Communities. However, Robert Matheson and the Loyalist Cataraqui Community Association are both working on asking our residents what they want to see done or not done.

At least I know where $100,000 of that money is. We should really be grateful to Kim Donavan and I am very happy to see that he was above board with his generious gift to the city. Now that is class, Kim not only donated that money but he also told us which causes he is supporting. How if other developers did that openly as Kim as done. Everyone in this city would be happy. Frankly, I am jealous. Hay Kim do you have any extra money that you can contribute to the Loyalist Cataraqui Community Association?? We even had an excellent Treasurer (Im not Treasurer) who I know could easlier find causes out this end that need support.;)

Regardless, Kim is great and we should be very thanfkul for his gift and the way he has given it.

[Civic]

The recent comments in this thread with respect to the preliminary Memorial Centre master plans as some sort of "Disney World" seems to be shockingly over stated. As we head towards almost $100 million dollar in capital costs for both the new city LVEC and Multiplex developments it seems hardly surprising that an early plan for the Memorial Centre site, with multiple buildings and park facilities, would require a significant investment to implement over a number of years.

[Lydia]

I am sorry Civic if I am leaving you with an impression that I think that your neighbourhood is doing anything other than trying to make your neighbourhood a much better place to live.

I enjoy tormenting Dogma because of his position towards the 32 Million dollar investment that is being spoken about.

I said it earlier that I believe BOTH of you have very valid points on what you wish for the neighbourhood. Somewhere in the middle is the correct place to be.

I just find it fascinating that we speak about money being spent in this city on various projects as if we do not have money to use. If you asked any previous politican to invest in infrastructure the usual response was "we have NO MONEY."" All of a sudden, We have spend money of the 7 major projects and now we are talking about another 32 million in your neighbourhood.

I also know that your neighbourhood has fought very hard and are fighting very hard to get what you want.

So you see Dogma that I believe that there is money to be spent and we should make EVERY district grow and thrive. However we need to spend money so that it can generate more so that taxpayers are NOT on the hook. Oh I can hear the taxpayers saying "NOT AGAIN." and "WHAT ELSE HAVE YOU GOT LINED UP NEXT?" ;););)

And besides, I love Disneyland!! What is wrong with wanting Disneyland??

[Dogma]

Civic - I believe Lydia has a point.

Many community parks are in need of retrofitting. For safety and quality of life needs.

Your "concept 1" is hard for taxpayers to swallow given that the "facade" and its infastructure are (entirely) paid for by us.

The LVEC and Multiplex are not.

Not only are they PPP Private, Public partnerships & financial stakeholders, but user fees and other revenues to cover long term expenses (such as maintanence) are covered over the next 30 years.

I also believe that the latter facilities will be used by the "entire general public", and that they will pay for themselves, while providing a practical (no fake facades) reasonable "public place" that promotes not only community capacity building, but more quality and diverse opportunities for their success (the so called 7 projects) inwhich the entire community asked the City to make happen - for generations to enjoy.

I do not believe the "concept 1" - falls into the same "geminschaft" or entire community benefit that you maybe suggesting as the "final concept" - I also remind everyone to heed the Agriculturial Societies threats as real. I have NO doubt they will be involved until either "monies" and/or a new home for their once a year program is solved.



Quote:
The major decision to revitalize the Memorial Centre has now been made.


I certainly hope there is a reasonable alternative to concept 1, that both reflects inclusiveness of the rest of the public - as they are (at this point) the only stakeholder. I believe Civic we both agree on at least this point.

[Dogma]

Society to say no to M Centre plan; Agricultural group wants proposal modified first !Posted By Jordan Press

Whig-Standard 2007-10-23

No one disagrees that the Memorial Centre needs revamping. But, 32 million dollars for a Disney World "concept" is silly.

Councillors, a city committee, architects and the agricultural society agree on the goal. But, who pays?

It's just agreeing on the same path that's been difficult.

Some of the first steps are expected to be taken this week when the committee overseeing the revitalization meets and talks about the society's reluctance to endorse the concept plan for the revamped site. They want NO change!

" are not against the concept plan. It's just that they're afraid to say yes to it," said society president Connie Selle.

If there is a compromise, the board wants to see something in writing before it says yes, she said.

"I think that's fair," Selle said.

Tonight, the revitalization advisory committee will meet and discuss the society's position, approved through its board of directors.

[B] Its position, voted on Sept. 26 at the society's regular board meeting, states that the society backs the idea of a memorial garden on York Street, but the society's needs "have not been suitably addressed and until a revised concept plan can be presented, our motion is not to accept the current plan."

The concept plans include a new pool, memorial garden, cenotaph and front entrance.

The proposal calls for the Memorial Centre to keep its ice pad, but be turned into a multi-purpose facility with additional meeting rooms and an indoor track.

The 2.4metre-high fence around the site would be taken down and replaced with trees.

Consultants estimated the price tag for all the work to come to more than $32 million.

The two sticking issues are the plans to the take down the fence that currently surrounds the perimeter of the site and to rebuild the barns and attach them directly to the arena.

One fear is that the barns won't be large enough to accommodate the growing needs of the annual fall fair.

"The problem is we are growing," Selle said. "We need to be able to grow."
The architect's proposal for the barns wouldn't decrease the amount of space that currently exists on the site and could be internally divided into different areas.

Another issue with the barns is that they would be too close to the proposed new space for the midway and that the higher volumes of noise could scare the animals.

"Those are two big issues," Selle said.

The fence around the 23-acre site is also proposed to come down, but not before the society's concerns are addressed. Selle said she felt the site needed to be fenced in. The fence controls animals and the flow of people into the fall fair.

She said the society will suggest other fence ideas, including those with gates, that will be more inviting than the current fence and still meet the society's needs.

Councillor Rob Hutchison said one idea may be to have some way of shielding the noise from the midway from hitting the barns.
All ideas will be discussed when talks are officially scheduled later this week.

"If they're coming up with ideas, we're more than willing to listen," Hutchison said. "That's the attitude the committee has taken from the word go."

However, Hutchison said the committee doesn't want to see the process grind to a halt while the committee and society work to resolve the outstanding issues.

Councillor Ed Smith said the difficulty will be the other stakeholders that gave input into what should happen at the site.

"We can't give all the groups ideally what they would want," he said. "We're trying to put in place a plan that will maximize its use for the most number of people in the community."

Smith said the concept plans don't exclude the fall fair, now in its 177th year, from setting up on the site, but just setting up in a different way.

Councillor Steve Garrison, who chairs the committee, said if the city believes in the partnership with the agricultural society over the site (the society helped build the centre more than 50 years ago and has a contract with the city that is currently the subject of another debate), then the city needs to realize the society uses the whole site for the fall fair.

"The concept plan doesn't necessarily recognize that," Garrison said. "The concept plan does need to be adjusted."

jpress@thewhig.com (jpress@thewhig.com)
When and where
The Memorial Centre revitalization advisory committee meets tonight at 7 p.m. in the councillors' lounge on the third floor of City Hall.

[Dogma]

M Centre of attention; City staff to review plan's fencing options

Posted By Jordan Press

Posted 6 hours ago

After months of being stuck in the proverbial rut, plans to revamp the Memorial Centre took a step forward last night. But no one was able to definitively answer the question: How big of a step was it?

"That's a good question. It's important we start thinking that way," said Councillor Steve Garrison, chair of the committee overseeing the revitalization.

Last night, the committee agreed to have city staff review the concept plan for the site with the intent of removing the current fence and replacing it with a "more attractive, esthetically pleasing enclosure" that can help the fall fair and not discourage residents from using the site.

Garrison said he hoped that the start of work called for in the revitalization concept plan, which has become the subject of debate and discussion between the committee and the agricultural society, won't be affected too much by the committee's inability to make progress.

"We've been spinning our wheels for a couple of weeks," Garrison said. "I think we're finally moving forward again."

Councillor Ed Smith, whose district of Williamsville is home to the Memorial Centre, said after the meeting that things didn't move as far forward as possible.

"I don't think we moved forward as effectively as we could have," he said. "We started to confuse issues - but we did move forward."

The vote, though unanimous, did not come without a series of arguments between Garrison and Smith, including one over a letter the latter wrote to the agricultural society about them looking into alternative sites for the fall fair.

"In my opinion, that helped take us away from where we were going," Garrison said during the meeting. He said the letter insinuated the society should leave.

"Insinuation? There was no insinuation," Smith replied. He said even the society agreed it should look into alternatives to ensure it could keep the 177-year-old fall fair going in the best spot.

Agricultural society president Connie Selle said the fair has lost money in the past few years, but this year the society hopes to turn a profit.

[Dogma]

Proposal seeks fair change; Society endorses moving fall event

Posted By Jordan Press

Posted 2 hours ago

The first official step to move the 177-year-old fall fair from its longtime home could happen this week, a move the agricultural society is endorsing.

Staff from city hall and executives from the agricultural society could hammer out a deal that would see the fair move from the Memorial Centre to another part of the city.

A proposal being presented for political approval would have both sides look at options and details for a potential relocation.

Councillor Ed Smith wouldn't say if the options include spending $4.4 million on a "buyout" to move the fair from its midtown home.

"Ultimately, it's not about how much it is. It's what they feel they need," said Smith, who represents Williamsville district, home to the 23-acre Memorial Centre.

"It's pointless talking about how much that's going to cost or not cost until we know what all the options are."

If the proposal receives political approval, it would overturn a committee decision to work the agricultural society into the future of the Memorial Centre.

Redevelopment estimated at $3.2M

However, the society admits that may be difficult. In a letter sent to city politicians last week, the society wrote it may be "very difficult, if not impossible" to fit the needs of the agricultural society with those of other groups that have a stake in what happens to the Memorial Centre site.

"Anyone who has attended the fair, especially on Saturday or Sunday, has likely noticed that all the barns, paved areas and the infield grass areas are basically in use for one thing or another. To reduce these areas would not only jeopardize the current [fair] footprint, but would also inhibit future growth ... and other possible agricultural-sponsored events," the letter states.

"One does not need to be technically gifted to comprehend that accommodating the needs of the [society] ... is going to be most challenging, and it will definitely cause repercussions for other slated usages on this site."


The letter says that executives with the society want political approval to "at least explore ... the possible relocation of the fair" and how much it might cost.

The society notes in the letter that while it is thankful for the support it has received during the Memorial Centre process, "some members in their desire to support have lost [sight of] the fact that the society has its own elected board of directors who have passed a motion to explore relocation options."

Smith said opening talks to officially move the fall fair was the right thing to do.

The future of the fall fair has been murky for months after society members reacted negatively to proposed plans for a revamped Memorial Centre that were first released last summer.

During the last edition of the fall fair - the 177th anniversary of the oldest fair in eastern Ontario - organizers said they intended to have the fair stay at the Memorial Centre grounds for at least 2008 and 2009.

That could change depending on talks. Smith said it would be nice to have everything wrapped up by the end of this year, but there was no rush to get things done.

In January, the president of the agricultural society sent a letter to city councillors that stated it was "painfully evident" that plans for the Memorial Centre did not fit the society's needs when it came to the fall fair.

"The question that arises is whether or not it is practical for the [society] and the Fall Fair to remain at the Memorial Centre," Connie Selle wrote.
She noted that the society has not felt any pressure to relocate the fair.
She also wrote that it "may make economic sense for council to consider negotiating a dollar amount" to help the society relocate the fall fair to a new location. At a meeting late last month, the society's representative on the committee overseeing the redevelopment threw out the figure of $4.4 million.

The proposed redevelopment of the Memorial Centre site would begin with the destruction and relocation of the barns that currently sit on the southwest corner of the site. The proposal is to build new barns attached to the western edge of the arena.

The estimated cost of the work is $3.2 million.

No final decision on the plans has been made.

[Lydia]

The proposed redevelopment of the Memorial Centre site would begin with the destruction and relocation of the barns that currently sit on the southwest corner of the site. The proposal is to build new barns attached to the western edge of the arena.

Okay, I am not understanding this one. Are they asking for 4.4 million to move barns from the southwest corner of the site to the western edge (i.e. western site)????

If that is the case then why doesn't everyone in Kingston have a barn raising activity like the ones people had 177 years ago. We can all do the work and build barns. Hell even older people like us can hand nails to younger stronger people who could do the hammering. Us old folks can be what I call "GOFOR)
My husband build a 8x10 shed by himself with me being the GO FOR THIS AND GO FOR THAT. I even handled him the tools, tape measure, staples, etc.

I even held the ladder so that he would not fall off. (Well actually I was trying to shake it but he still didn't fall off). lol lol.

Could we have clearification on exactly why we should spend 3.4 or 4.4 million on BARNS in what I could say the same location. Again realize that I am not clear on this situation.
:confused::confused::confused: