John Alexander - a Council Appraisal

[posting]

You Heard it Here First!

You heard it here first: none of the five councilors who voted against the downtown sports and entertainment centre on May 30 will make it back to Council after this November’s municipal elections. And that’s more than just wishful thinking.

Consider:


Kevin George’s aspirations to become mayor took a major body blow when not only did he oppose the project but he stood up in front of a packed council chambers and thousands of Cogeco viewers to suggest there was some kind of “mobster work” at play. He announced with great fanfare that he called police when on the morning of the vote a local businessman accused George of opposing the project to further his mayoralty bid and threatened to harness all his resources to defeat him. Get serious Kevin! To be mayor you have to be able to show good judgment, take the heat and develop a thick skin. An F on all counts!
Rick Downes, who has announced he’s running for mayor, was the only member of Council not to engage in the debate before the final vote at council on the biggest issue of this municipal term. Although his opposition to the project is well known, he appeared sullen and despondent and simply picked up his marbles after the vote and left. Colleagues are still scratching their heads and wondering why Rick passed up the opportunity to make one of his lengthy and passionate orations. In announcing his mayoralty run, Rick said it is time to move up or out. As he saw the votes piling up on the “yes” side in response to public opinion, he obviously knew his “up” option is gone.
George Beavis will probably not seek re-election and it’s a tad sad that after all these years of public service he will be remembered for his dithering on this project. If you could follow his reasoning, he seemed to be saying he couldn’t vote for it but wasn’t really against it. It looks like George has decided that he can’t take the heat and will get out of the kitchen. So will he endorse a candidate to succeed him on council? Could be the kiss of death, say some of his constituents who lost patience in recent weeks trying to pin him down on the entertainment centre project.
Sara Meers. Many were happy three years ago when she replaced her Dad on Council and brought a youthful perspective to civic debate. But her contributions have been woeful. Appearing to take her lead on just about every issue from colleague Steve Garrison, Sara added insult to injury by scoffing at the $ 8 million community contribution to the sports and entertainment project as being only “on paper.” Hardly a grateful or encouraging comment from a member of Council about community spirit and generosity. A strong opponent and an unhappy electorate will ensure Sara won’t get the opportunity to return to council and garner the experience she so woefully needs.
Steve Garrison will be the toughest of the lot to beat because his single minded opposition to change and anything that is mildly entrepreneurial appeals to a segment of the electorate. So does his suspicion and sarcastic treatment of staff, the business community, and any anyone else involved in a project or idea that doesn’t fit his ideology. But his narrow, take-no-prisoners approach and strong record of opposing progress have upset many people who will work hard to end the career of Council’s yappiest memb

[Emerald]

That would surely have to include Ed Smith who ran into his contstituents on this issue as it overflowed from the Memorial Centre.

[Exhibitionist]

I agree fully with John's summary of the past 3 years of councillors (of the left or middle left)...

The antic's of the "gang of 5" councillors had little to contribute to the debates on any project - other than costing us taxpayers thousands of dollars and subugating the processes to get things done.

Anglan Bay - studies and a perfectly good site location for the facility - now out the window. And for what?

A LVEC building 30% smaller now at the North Block site that costs taxpayers and the community stakeholders (the exact same) as the larger more multipurpose facility site at Anglan Bay.

I really will not miss any of them. And hope Rosen stays on to clear each any every one of them out of council or better yet out of town!

[SLN]

so someone calls a guy, threatens him, bullies him, and claims that they will use all of their (probably substantial) resources to "defeat him" (whatever that means) and you think that his standing up to it makes him a WIMP?

Why don't you move south and call yourself a neo-con? You'd fit right in.

[Exhibitionist]

Frankly - I think you better speak to Kevin George to get (all) the facts.

But, if someones "phone call" suggests bullying for the purposes of influencing a member of council or anyone...at all.

1) I certainly agree this is not the right conduct for anyone to endure or be part of.

But, I also believe - the way these ugly matters (in life) are best handled is more important. (Than the matter itself)

And to suggest a "witch hunt" should be conducted by the Mayor or the City (at a council meeting) is rather unappropriate and distracting from the purpose of council.

And maybe this is "partically" why Mr. George brought it up at the begnning of the final debate on the LVEC's future. (Who knows)

There are avenues though Mr. George should conduct an investigation of the serious or "supposed" seriousness of the situation.

Unfortunately; the method of communication chosen was obvoiusly from the emotional level, and his reaction is typical of his general character in council these past 3 years. This is what we are suggesting is NOT what we want from our council. Knee jerk reactionary decisions, grandstanding or conspircy theory laden speech's without the facts!

I fully endorse any "authority investigation" - if warranted. But, not on camera at the beginning of a agended debate.

[SLN]

Ex - sorry, I should have made it clear that my 'neo-con' comment was directed at the original poster "posting".

The thing about the George incident, and I admit freely that I have no idea of the actual 'facts' (and neither does anyone except Mr. George, the bully, and maybe the cops) of the event, is that what appears to be a knee-jerk reaction might just be a matter of timing. What good would it have done him or the City in general to remain silent if the incident happened in the 11th hour and the people needed to hear it right then and there?

It seems logical that anyone who wanted to bully, blackmail, or otherwise influence Mr. George would be smart enough to wait until the last minute, precisely so that there was no time for Mr. George to handle it in any other way.

[Lydia]

Okay, folks, you all know that I am SUPPORTING AND WILL SUPPORT KEVIN GEORGE FOR MAYOR.

Having said that, I also know for a FACT that Kevin was NOT (I SAY NOT) the only councilor who was contacted and intiminated.

THANK GOD for the group of 5 because some of these people WERE contacted in the unfriendly and threatening manner.

And Yes IT WAS REGARDING THE LVEC vote. Had the person who wanted the LVEC not threatened the councilors who voted against it before the vote was conducted nothing would have been brought out.

Isn't it interesting how the Accounting firm looking into the way the Fiscial responsiblities have show that the City isn't fiscial responsible. Kevin George is one of the most fiscially responsible councilors on there. Could it be the reason he was threatened????

I said from the beginning that I WAS A GENERAL ACCOUNTANT and I found that the Firm stated what I have been saying about the City's financial reporting. However, they said it professionally.

[Exhibitionist]

I believe what I have offered was the most reasonable for the "facts" (if any) that have been offered.

Any speculation regarding the so called " incident of a threat " must be proven in a court of law. Accountant or not. A lawyer that I am associated with says exactly that.

Until there is absolute proof that there was a "state of threat for ones life or property" and can be proven. There is no case and frankly bad reasoning he wished to "deal with it" the way he did.

There is absolutely no (good reason) or clear proof to suggest at a "public council meeting" - that anyone in council had anything to do with this aligation of misapproapriate conduct.

And that is the insinuation suggested directly to the council and all its members. Including the Mayor and the supports of the LVEC.

I find it both prudent and necessary George should have checked with his lawyer (before his wife) or anyone one else - before announcements and provocative insinuations.

Especially on camera and in a public forum!

I find this telling of exactly how Mr. George would handle the role of Mayor or any other public office. Especially in a full time role - alone - under pressure.

He maybe prudent in financial matters, but one of "well rounded character and facilities" - the making of my political representative locally or a high profile leader position - I think not.

[SLN]

I ask you then, *************, what would you have done?

Would you have called your lawyer and waited until after the vote to hear that there was just cause is pressing charges? What good would that have done, except to make the vote go more smoothly?

[Lydia]

Althought we may not like the timing of Kevin's disclosure of intimination, I dislike the fact that the people in the YES camp didn't take into consideration the timing of their threat.

Had the people involved NOT TRIED to intiminate councilors before the vote, then i would have been upset with Kevin.

However, knowing that councilors had been intiminated PRIOR to the vote, Kevin showed courage, respect for the people of Kingston by disclosing WHY people might have changed their vote to YES.

I have a deep distrust with councilors who have said that the financial aspects have become better. I wonder why aspects become better to those councilors when

1: The Money was promised before by the Provincial Government and then wasn't given to Kingston. (How can we trust them again)
2: The Money is not guaranteed even as we speak. YET.
3: The Provincial Government said that there would be a grant for xxx$ and now they will only be willing to give half of that amount.
4: We now get half the promised grant however the expeditures have actually increased by that same amount.

Hum I wonder why that seems to be a better offer and deal especially since those swing voting councilors said they didn't like the offer before.

Hum only time will tell.

Either way, we now have an LVEC. Again I have never been against an LVEC for business, Hopefully, conventions will be conducted there. We do need new businesses to come here.

[Exhibitionist]

I ask you then, *************, what would you have done?

The lobbists are part of any political environment.

They have influenced many a budget an as many politicians throughout history. And will again.

"Aggressive or not" they are basically salespeople (some with big sticks /votes) with influence from industry, commerce, interest groups - i.e enviromentalist to tobacco farmers.

Now, who or what group is involved in this lobbying of councilllors. (God only knows.)

If any of these councillors had any experience in council or read the paper, it is highly likely they have ALL had 11 hour phone calls especially on "hot topics" or knowing they maybe influenced along the way.

I cannot make any apologies for them not having some sense of responsibility to do what they feel is right. (i.e you can lead a horse to water but yuo cannot make him/her drink).

I merely suggest that you always check with your lawyer, accountant or minister before leaping into "a potential risky situation" that may affect either the way you conduct business and how you will be "perceived" in doing business.

Mr. Kevin George in my mind did neither. This (to me) shows both a lack of stategic initative and lack of judgement, when he (knew) there would be lobbist's both for an against this project.

Kevin in my mind acted nievely and "simple" and I will not vote for one with such obvious shortcomings.

[SLN]

threats are threats, my friend. They are not legal.

[Exhibitionist]

I cannot make any apologies for (you) or council members not having some sense of responsibility to do what they feel is right. (i.e you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him/her drink).

I merely suggested that you always check with your lawyer, accountant or minister before leaping into a risky situation that may affect both the way you do business and how you are - perceived.

Mr. Kevin George in my mind did neither - and shows a true "lack of strategic reflection and a very poor lack of judgement".

- he already knew fully there would be lobbist's on (both sides) of this projects debate.
- he already knew the potential for last minute influencing
- he already had received email from the potential operator of the LVEC
- he had the time and contacts to use either the city or personal lawyer at his disposal

He chose to tell a jumbled, eratic tale with no details like he was starring on Judge Judy - subjecting the council and viewers to more than just smoke and mirrors, but embarrasing the community and himself on a public broadcast with Federal Government, the public sector, city staff, business leaders and the common community looking on!

What a moron! Who could be so stupid.

Then ofcourse after not understanding a word he says - he gets himself sent to the corner!

With no dessert!

Serves him bloody right.

Do you also think for a moment - that the nay sayers have not been intimidating and stoking the fires of "conspiracy theory" or raising their mega project nightmare theme
at every media chance or any publics ear they can find? Where do you think Mr. Downes gets his material? The Pic Press?

It is unconceivable that anyone seeking public office or whom has sat at council as he has.. would not see something like this being possible or probable - (arm twisting or lobbying) call it what you will - but it is part of this worlds work, or play especially the more competitive the situation gets.

Get with reality here. We do not live in some utopia from Walt Disney!!!

He in my mind acted nievely and simple - and I will not vote for one with such obvious political and life experience shortcomings.

[Evelyn King]

Stayed Tuned Folks.

In The Near Future There May Be More Coming Out About The Dirty, Behind The Scenes Garbage That Went On Regarding The Lvec.

There Have Been So Many Flaws Around This Project, It Should Be Halted Immediately In My View.

I Have Always Supported An Lvec In This City, But I Have Been Outspoken About Due Process. A Project Of This Size Should Be Done Carefully And Prudently Not Fast Tracked To Suit The Agenda Of A Few.

Look What Has Happened To The Grand Theatre. Already The Budget For The Lvec Has Escalated By Over 4 Million Dollars And With The Cost Of Concrete And Steel Going Up In The Near Future, I Suspect It Will Go Even Higher.

I Attended Every Lvec Meeting And Spoke On Two Occasions As Did Many Others. None Of Our Suggestions Were Taken Into Consideration. This Project Has Only Succeeded In Fracturing This Community And That Is A Very Sad Result.

I Think The Numbers May Be A Little Off When Counting Those That May Be Re-elected. The So Called Offenders May Well Be Returned And The Governing Block Will Be Gone. Of Course, That Would Depend On Whether Downes Continues To Run For Mayor. George Beavis Will Not Be Running As He Is Running For The School Board.
Guess The Truth Will Be Realized In November. It Is Still Very Early In The Game And I Suspect In September Things Will Really Start To Heat Up.

Best Regards To All,

Evelyn King

[Lydia]

Well spoken Evelyn. Like you said you where there for EVERY council meeting that took place. You know the truth about the LVEC and the Yes and No Camps.

I just find it very interesting to know that the LVEC plans to have an Ice Rink in for tournament Hockey. Hum, If this city couldn't get enough people to VOTE IT TO BE HOCKEYVILLE, I wonder exactly HOW MANY people will PAY to see hockey at the LVEC????

Gee I guess there won't be enough people attending the LVEC for that event. Sure hope LVEC is going to present conventions, comedy shows, Talk shows stars, etc. Sure hope it will pay for itself.

[Exhibitionist]

The negative conspiracy theorist have been at very heart of every LVEC meeting.

I was at several meetings with Mr. Downes group - KCAL. He certainly fed off your x-file nieve ideas about a project you know little about. (You have not even visited in a building. nor have KCAL members worked in the industry, you personally have NOT read fully the reports on the LVEC)

- You rely on armchair conspiracy theorist like Mr. Bruce Todd and Betty Harlow for your jumbled arguments
- And your "expert" Mary Lou Adams - an associate prof - offers 15 year old reports on mega projects in US slums as evidence that "giant baseball stadiums are what we are building here in downtown KIngston".

- The LVEC is NOT a Skydome mega project as you have sugested. Not even close in it purpose or size!
- And it is not the Grand theatre renovation as you also suggest - It is not a underfunded, old risky building renovation!

This just shows us how much you really know about any of these projects.

Please get your facts straight. Maybe thats why the committee had little time for people that know little about LVEC's or there multipurpose design. It is not a BIG rink, it is not a convention centre! And it is NOT beyond the busines splan budget by adding prudently some hedging funds for increased costs. Remember you folks moved the project from Anglan Bay. And cost the city thousands in studies lost and now we get a 30% less of a building! It was not the cities doing. It was your KCAL and KTA doing.

:mad:

[SLN]

You know ex, you operate like a bully. You keep repeating yourself yet you offer no proof of your own that LVECs work to improve local economies and when people offer a different point of view your defense is "you are naive" and "read ALL the reports"

I know the tactic. You hope that people will just give up, that eventually you'll get them to feel ashamed of their 'stupidity.' You've even gone so far as to defend threats as mere examples of 21st century lobbying saying "it happens all the time!" well sure it does. So does child abuse.

I have looked into similar facilites to the LVEC. You know that's true because you've been to my site. I took pains NOT to compare our proposed LVEC with anything other than venues of the same size, unless I was making a comparison to show what bigger venues offer. You choose to ignore it. I even have the before and after employment rates there! I gave examples of facility useage and the events that go to 4-5000 seat 'arenas.' I've done a lot of legwork.

My guess is that this WILL go the way of the Skydome. I know it's not nearly the same type of venue - but I predict that in the years to come someone will buy that place for a fraction of the cost to build it.

I wonder who that will be?

[Exhibitionist]

I believe you are correct. I make no apologies to "repeating issues" that are not just confined to the "reading" the business reports or niave conspiracy thoughts - that "most" in the nay sayer KCAL "camp" call ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

They have proven to me and many others with their conspiracy theories, how little they like to know about the realities of such facilities.

KCAL - PUT A SPIN ON EVERYTHING THEY READ IN THE WHIG OR ANY STAGE OF THE PROCESS.

They frankly "used" or spun Ms. Adams 1990 reports on mega projects on their web site - to both stoke their own idealogy of conspiracy idealist dogma - to our community.

I interviewed Ms. Adams (back in the spring of 2006) - I can offer you what she said to me:

She basically said - "she is not an expert on LVEC's, and has never been in one", she is a associate professor at Queens, NOT a fully professor (as KCAL suggests), She has no experience or written any "papers" on the subject, and never has studied what these facilities are all about.

In fact she did not realise KCAL was using her as "their expert" on LVEC's.

She said the reports she offered were "very old and had little to do with our 4-5000 seat facility."

And that the reports "offered from the internet" are US baseball stadiums of 100,000 seats plus - that were used in large downtown US SLUMS areas with no existing infastructure, support service or (viabrant downtown) as Kingston does.

She also said to me - they are "mutually exclusive" of Kingstons LVEC.

BUT of course KCAL uses it all - as "EXACTLY the same" examples or "no different" - comparing the Kingstons LVEC.

You can see this quote on their website!

So, where are your reports. I am sure they would be less pernious than theirs....

Please educate us on the merots AND disadvantages of these facilities.

But, remeber do not just focus on "jobs". I noted in your "blog" it is not about JOBS (that you were more focused on at the time) and more sandy beaches for Canadians to lay around waiting for E.I or the world of globalization to simply go away was another of your ideas? I cannot remember it all.

The LVEC represents and offers much more than that to us all.

AGAIN - If you have READ any of what the (existing reports) or tak to people in the know - you will emulate
I hope you do soon - a better perspective of the LVEC.

Not just here say and KCAL misinformation!

[SLN]

See - this is your tactic.

Calling oppositions arguments "conspiracy theories."
Calling beaches places for people to lie around on to wait to collect EI.

Both ridiculous. How about I change my argument to calling your ideas "corporate boosterism" and "kissassitis."

:)

[Lydia]

OKay, folks take a look at Independent Voice - community press www.independentvoice.ca A link that is on Kingston Elector's site. Read it carefully.

************* always talks about the ""BUSINESS PLAN"". Very interesting fact, Did you know that the Councilors for the LVEC actually had the never during the TASKFORCE to start talking about the project only costing this city $25 million to $30 million.

Gee the shovel isn't even in the ground yet and the cost so far is $41, or more Million.

Oops so goes this great business plan. HUm, :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Would this be the beginning of another Grand Theatre financial oversite????

I tell you all, give me a housewife, who has never worked outside her home and Ill show you a more educated, financial responsible, representative than any one who worked with the budget on the LVEC.

[Exhibitionist]

Make sure you read right into Jamie Swifts leftist / conspiracy theory ... he fails to mention any sources and frankly it is not true the LVEC final budget was pegged at 25-30 million dollars.

In fact; the Anglan Bay preliminary "budget estimate" did not include the infastructure that is now required for the North Block site - since you folks moved it there. Oh yes after 100's of thousand spent on lost studies for Anglan Bay.

The new "budgets" are for the long term plan for servicing the entire North Block zoning for development for retail, mixed commercial and hotel located in the block area.

This was not in the original business plan. (At Anglan Bay)

Nor is the business plan (set in stone) Business plans are "forecasts" and frankly are done to critically critique the viability of (all) components that make up the project (as it was proposed) at (Anglan Bay) - NOT the North Block.

The contingency fund and extra monies for the entire blocks developments was not in the Anglan Bay business plan. Thus the increase from original preliminary "estimates" before the design, operationing funding, studies, moving the LVEC, infastructure at North Block and contingency funds.

Any accountant or person on a fixed income knows that inflation and gas also goes up over 2 years....or more...

Mr. Swift also seems to suggest: all along - this is the BIG RINK.

And it is NOT a BIG rink, or a SKYDOME or anything of the sort.

And KCAL and the rest that think it is - has never been to either, nor has has Mr. Swift.

Infact; it is the smallest new facility in the country -

....and Mr. Swift contuniously speaks with a fork tongue when he says:


"Kingston gets lots done — great activities for kids, all sorts of excellent amateur theatre, great live music in bars and clubs, fund-raising, a small-city symphony, a rep cinema in a vibrant downtown. The list is endless. As far as the economy goes, we have trouble attracting manufacturing because (unlike Guelph and Alliston, which just received a nice parcel of new automotive jobs) we are simply not part of southern Ontario’s industrial heartland."
In fact:

1) There is little activities for children here...especially for ones that can ill afford it.

(What events is he talking about? - give examples?)

I have trouble finding good, clean recreational or entertaining events here in Kingston.

Most of the facilities are worn out! Or out of business - school activities are one thing - but "familiy outings" both educational and recreational is another.

There are no zoo's, no science centres, no family museams, 2 pools - always busy, no skating activities, no chidrens shows or decent ones, no fairs, no beaches, no winter carnivals, no fall fairs - decent ones, no facilites here - that can hold and run safely an event for hundreds, or thousands of kids and parents with proper facilites!

The City has little to offer in family entertainment! Beleive me.


2) Amateur Theatre - ya he's right about that. Amateur.

3) Live music in bars?

Ya - I guess we all like to hang around bars and listen to cover bands!

Man do you have any taste? Or imagination? Do you get out much?

4) Fundraising?

What has that got to do with anything for the vibrancy - of the Memorial Centre fund?
- I don't get it?

5) The list is endlist? What list?????

6) And as far as the economy goes?

Yes - he's right it has gone.

With all the Norcom/Northern Telcom, Bombardiers and Bell jobs and thousands of good paying jobs - that have been here for 40 years!

I am afraid we HAVE been part of the hub of industrial heartland- where has he been?

(At church getting "paid" tithes?) Luck guy.

And Guelph and Alliston are not exactly (Cities) or close to any auto centres.

What the hell is he talking about???? WE cannot and will not have industry here?


He also tugs on your heart strings:

“We cannot achieve a just society or a fully-productive economy,” said the report, “if we do not do a better job of supporting the needs of lower-income adults, as they attempt to lift themselves out of poverty."

How will I or "them" lift themselves or any (marginalised) i.e senior on fixed incomes if taxes keep increasing (25%) in the past 5 years - without us doing something to invest in our communities quality of life and economic development? What use a magic wand?

Well its easy for him to say - working full time for the Catholic Board with more money than sin. And he has extra work $ on the side... writing for left wing papers, conspiracy articles on our community leaders with no need for research / the less the better.

Why does not he donate to the seniors association like the rest of the businesses do day in and out, year after year. Ask Jack Chang how many times Mr. Swift led the United Way or organised the Heart and Stroke Campaigns.

I like Jamie - but I must say I have read most of the articles - he has made up- and he needs either better research or become a ex frustrated militant. But, please at least read the business plans or get a real job before he starts critising the hands that feed this community.

He may find himself isolated and worse working for Startech. As alot of his clientel still do.

[Lydia]

Okay, I am going to assume that your are totatlly correct that If the LVEC was build on Anglin Bay it WOULD have cost $25 to $30, Million.

Let's say that you take out the actually cost of the building itself, (never mind the infrastructure at this point). How much would you say the Building would cost on Block North?

I fully understand that the infrastructure costs would certainly differ from one location to another.

How much do you FORECAST that the LVEC will ACTUALLY COST NOW ON BLOCK NORTH. When I say Forecast I mean let's try for a very realistic cost.

You have nothing to lose now that it has been totally decided upon.

After all is said and done, After the building is standing and has all the seats in it, After all the sidewalks are in place, After all the Infrastructures are created and done. Tell us WHAT IS GOING TO BE THE REAL COSTS if it were build TODAY or THIS YEAR.

[Exhibitionist]

I can't give you an absolute cost a range a best guess maybe.

But - it was never 25 -30 million for all the facility. Swift research is always iffy.

But, please consider not just the cost of the building, land and infastructure future developoment.

As you know there are two sides of a ledger, income statement... and they include recievables, debt service charges, fixed overhead, expenses etc.

I look at the facility, homes cars and major purchase as a whole.

Not that something is 30 million or even 45 million.

i.e I look things such as the insurance or lawsuits for the facility 30 years out.

The city just removed a slide in our park. Insurance reasons!

The days of free for all is over.

Would the "premium costs and lawsuits" costs be less or continue or be more in the Memorial Center - than the new facility? - with its updated safer facilities for say handcap persons, or the enviromental impact, energy consumption of the new verses old etc.

It the long term comparison of the two facilities = operating costs I would be looking at in the investment - and the overall ROI.

Sometimes it is best to not renovate an old facility - but take a larger line of credit to build new.

Thats all I can say.

I am still hopefully they can stay within 10-15% of the fully budgeted cost of
$41, 000,000. (Remember I am also suggesting it could come in 10 % less.)

Ravensview. The largest new construction facility in the City came in less than budgeted!

- the 80/20 rule is reasonable on a new facility.

I don't know, but I am sure the nay sayers will be pouncing on if it is 10 cents over the budget. They already are and its not build yet.

[Lydia]

[B][Sometimes it is best to not renovate an old facility - but take a larger line of credit to build new. /B]


FULLY AGREED WITH.

10% is an amount that everyone should consider a reasonable increase over a forecast. If anyone argues with that they are nuts. I fully expect at least a 10% to 25% increase when all things are taken into consideration. (I only fight with the 100% to 200% increases happen because some managers won't call a spade a spade).

You are totally correct when you look at the costs associated with a project over the life of that project. However, since none of us are fortune tellers when it comes to these events (lawsuits) I don't include them. These things would happen building a new project or just looking after an old one.

Hopefully it will only cost $41 mill AND ONLY if that is due to the change from Anglin Bay to North Block.

[Evelyn King]

I will throw my guess into the ring for the total cost of the LVEC.

My guess is $50 million and I figure that is low.

Stay tuned!!!!!!!!!

Best regards to all,

Evelyn King

[Exhibitionist]

Stay tuned?

We are talking about long term investments here. Including the operational impact of ones project. i.e the Memorial Centre verse the North Block LVEC.

If you wish we are discussing (with reason and some experience) the perspective of hard costs, budgets and T&M costs, that will impact (higher OR lower budget outcomes).

We do not wish to discuss "conspiracy theory" anymore - or have you
Mr. Swifts and KCAL poor research on the subject.

If you wish to "stay tuned" - please do proper research on project management budgeting.

Pulling numbers out of a hat - and running into the dark - yelling...

Stay tuned?

Is rather silly and does little for anyone here - especially you!

[Lydia]

I believe that Evelyn is probably closer to the real figure than anyone so far.

*************, I asked you to give us a direct answer to my question. I don't give a dang about Mr. Swift or KCAL. They have nothing to do with my question. In fact, I actually took myself of the KCAL web listing.

I am asking you to give us all a REAL Cost Analysis for the Completion of the LVEC as it stands on Opening Ceremonies. Maybe you don't know yourself. I just figured since you have been so vocal about the BUSINESS PLAN that you would be the best person to tell us the truth and that is WHY i AM ASKING.

Just for the record, Ill put in my guess and it is only a guess. I think when all is said and done it will cost this city $125,Million. I am basing my guess on the way I have witnessed the city's financial represenatives deal with costs. Also since I worked in the accounting department of Trow Engineering, I have seen the way governments work on projects.

[Exhibitionist]

I gave you my "estimate". Based on what we know.

I cannot spend my days going over the construction drawings (that aren't even drawn) or costing it out, analysis the "extras"....etc on the LVEC project that aren't even conceived.

My "guess" is 41, M plus or minus 15 %.

125 M, - please explain?

And frankly its a done deal - the chips will fall as they do no matter how you or I wish to throw the dice, use a crystal ball or a dart board for the numbers on the LVEC.

When drawings are available and the features are complete 2/3 through the project - you will have your answer then.

But, I am not certainly going to loose any sleep over this.

Good night and best wishes as always.

[Lydia]

Firstly, at the point in time it is $41 Million.

Only 2/3 of the plan is completed = Throw in another 10 Million to complete the plan.

Shovel isn't even in the ground as yet = Throw in another 10 Million.

How remember where the financial group is giving $50,000 to each person who submitted a plan for the Multiplex???

I guess that would also apply to the LVEC and I would assume that there would be at least 3 THREE companies who were draw up some plans

2 X 50,000, Another Million (the Winner got the contract and therefore we would only pay two companies for just showing up)


10 + 10 + 1 + 41 = 61 Million


Now take into consideration that every thing that the city has EVER budgeted cost twice that amount 61 X 2 = $122 to 125 Million.

I also look at other cities and their final actual costs. However, remember that I am optimist lol lol

You are right time for you to sllllllllllllleep Good night and there truly isn't anything anyone can do except try to enjoy the LVEC because we better lol lol.

[Exhibitionist]

Thanks for the clarification with your budget thoughts...

Although the models for the LVEC would not cost 1 million to make - with the math offered. (check it)

I doubt the 20 million you added because "the drawings are not complete / or the digging has not begun" is likely needed.

The costs for "design and build are there" - most of the buildings details are shortlisted in the "business plan'
- i.e how many washrooms, what type of venue seats and how many, interior finishes...are already in the budget to Ellis Don. And there would be an agreement in place to build - "on budget agreement". The area around the building has also been excavated and tested and "readied to build condition".

General Budget note:

Buildings (houses) are usually budgeted with the essentials i.e - walls, roof, windows, floors, lighting, washrooms, kitchen, basement foundations, land costs, development fees etc - as the (square foot cost) - $100 a square foot for example for a house: 2000 sqft house x $100.00 = $200,000 for a house.

Commercial buildings: - if you take our LVEC - a 150,000 sq ft building divide by 41 million = $ 273.00 a sqft.

And thats is with the specific details (i.e how many toilet paper dispensers to emergency door exits on the building)
given to Ellis Don that have been included to make a quote and to make a building design - "multipurpose".

including stage, rigging, loading docks, HVAC, interior features, handicap ramps, ticket booths and security facilites, elevator etc. (all in the budget now)

So, it looks like alot of the costs are in the revised business plan - "financial plan" . And is reasonalbe to say that
41 million plus or minus 15% is reasonable budget estimate to complete the building as drawn.

I think your budget of 125 million would average - 900 a sqft - and not even the Kingston City Hall with
a "gold" dome, and new interior with silk rugs - would cost that much (per sq ft) if we had to build it today from scratch!

Food for thought though.

This is NOT a Grand Theatre renovation.

The GRand had little details, little exploration of the building integrity and little cash to do it. (but, lots of interest groups, and a signed check by the general public without any opposition)

Oh and I forgot - we still will likely be receiving a Federal Grant of 3-4 million - not included in the LVEC budget!

[Evelyn King]

I sure am sick of hearing about KCAL in reference to anything to do with the LVEC. That group has not made any comments on anything for quite some time but, it is obvious they are stuck in someones craw. But, that seems to apply to anyone who has a difference of opinion that differs from *************.

One used to be able to voice opinions on this site without being attacked or called names. I personally think it is disgusting.

Your idol, will probably be announcing on Monday at the Ambassador that he will be running for another term for mayor. I guess he will learn the hard way, just what the people of Kingston truly think of his leadership. Hopefully you will get an invitation Ex, personally, I can't be bothered.

In closing, before you jump all over my comments Ex, no I am not a member of KCAL, I don't live in a condo either so I will save you wasting your comments on those two issues. I can't dispute the grey hair though!!!!

Best regards to all others,

Evelyn King

[Exhibitionist]

I agree - your recent opinions are well noted.

You certainly have had your opinions through PIC or Independent paper, the Whig - to the general public...

But, its called having a critical opinion. And now that the LVEC is won! I suspect there will be less...to speak to ?

But, if you have a chance look at the "facts about construction" below - you will learn something for the next round!

I would "respect" comments if one and KCAL (would stop spreading conspiracy theory) ...and get the facts.

- see RECENT "theories" on KCAL daily web updates. http://www.kcal.com (http://www.kcal.com/) ....."critiquing" the LVEC project.

By the way - the KCAL (use to) have a link to this site ...
- until someone questioned their theories...hmmm thats the democracy you vote for or support?

The Mayor - Thats his choice to run and our choice who to give our vote to - and thats called democracy.

"Stay Tuned"......................

[Emerald]

I think (do not know) that KCAL removed the link to this site after a critical comment by I.M.Pertinent. So much for rational discussion.

[Lydia]

Emerald, I believe that when someone has stepped on people's toes they should be told to calm down. lol lol Like you did with me lol lol lol.

The reason I decided to remove my name of the KCAL list is because in MY opinion they think they are tooo good to communicate with people on this site. They also think they are tooo good for the Kingston Taxpayer's Association as well.

Of course, that is JUST my opinion. Dispite the fact that I would like to free fall out of an airplane like ************* suggested, lol lol but only if i can push him out of the plain when i go, I prefer those comments over people who can not GIVE opinions at all.

I support our site because we can argue, complain, disagree, fight, with one another and be totally HONEST about our positions. We are NOT NICE, but we are REAL and we are not afraid to express our opinions.

Exhibition and I have had a hate/like communication on here and we still have no problem with it, (at least I hope that ************* feels the same way)

I have disagreed with IM Pertinent but I feel the same way about him/her.
Now ill go back lick my wounds and fight another day lol lol.

[Exhibitionist]

Lydia - I could not agree with you more. I have been very (unusually) pleasant when first corresponding with KCAL.

I kindly asked for (2) two opportunities to add a "balanced" informed article to their site regarding the LVEC. i.e some stat's, general information, nothing to left or right sided..etc.

In both cases; my initial sense was they had no intention to include any articles that remotely questioned, or added a "balanced view" with included industry information to their public web opinions, discussions and or their open forum.

And their short and lude responses from some of their members was (frightenly offensive).

Especially from Mr. Butler and Mr. Black the web host.

I also contacted their "expert research/reference person" and asked some general questions of their background., knowledge and reserach on the LVEC (where most of KCAL argument is based on.)

Unfortunately; Ms. Adams (the researcher) said the research was not based on the LVEC, nor did the researcher know that KCAL was even using it publically! She also added they or she had "no experience with such facilities either hands on or otherwise."

When I told KCAL this - they exploded with excuses and were "absolute" in their convictions that "the research is no different!".

You can see this quoted on their site (the day after I spoke with them) ...- Ms. Mary Lou Adams - references - link (about half way down - right side of page) - says now - Kingston is "no different"

Geeeeeez - I love Lydia. And most people are good souls.

But, at least give us a chance KCAL to speak - I am only trying to get to the "best truth for all."

[Lydia]

Thank You *************, On this I CAN AGREE WITH YOU FULLY.

I will not belong to a group that isn't willing to put both sides on their site.

to quote Dr. Phil " It doesn't matter which side of a pancake you like, there is always another opposite side"

Same with LVEC " It doesn't matter which side you are on, both sides should be listened to and expressed.

I will NEVER expect people to AGREE with me just to do so. However, I will fight with anyone who is one sided and isn't WILLING to try to understand the other side.

When it comes to Harvey, unfortunately, I believe (rightly or wrongly) that he isn't as open and transparent as I WOULD LIKE HIM. I HAVE SEEN HIM NOT TELL THE FACTS OPENINGLY AND I HAVE SEEN HIM TRY TO INTIMINATE councilors (not just Kevin George).

Make no mistake, I am NOT SAYING HE ISN'T A GOOD MAN, I am saying that I don't like him as Mayor. I want someone like Hazel the Mayor of Mississauga. I believe that Kevin can become this kind of Mayor.

[Exhibitionist]

Lydia - I am only referring to KCAL and their less than welcoming tatics.

Rosen, George whomever - there will be moments or policies that will not be "fully disclosed" formed from the mandate they said they wish to be elected on.

Beleive me George will not be fully capable of full disclosure..with his track record of communicating clearly his full intentions. Especially if public will is not on his side, or councilors.

But, thats another forum I believe.

[Lydia]

OKAY KNOCK IT OFF *************, I AM START TO AGREE WITH ALMOST EVERYTHING YOU ARE SAYING THESE DAYS. :eek: :eek: :eek: :D :D

I agree there are many things that CAN NOT BE TOTALLY OPEN TO THE PUBLIC and that is the nature of competition in the business world.

Businesses do not wish all their plans, costs, projects going into the hands of their competitors. That is the reason for having everything not disclosed.

Only time, I believe that things should be discussed with the public is once the issue is to be given tax money. Usually that is done after a proposal is brought before council.

Once a proposal goes before council for consideration, then I believe things should be very open. Prior to that i believe that the councilors should be privy to plans, costs, etc.

I believe that when issues come before councilors than they should met with the public for input regarding projects that will make Kingston trive.

Kingston can be and (i think) a very dynamic city. If Oshawa is growing faster than any other city in Ontario then why should Kingston also grow????

I much prefer to live here instead of Oshawa.

[Exhibitionist]

Frankly; to get anything done - by committee - there should not be more than 8 persons on a "board". Any more there is always an issue with regards to getting anything done without endless debate and draws.

Woman and men also think differently and woman tend to think, discuss, discuss and think again, discuss some more then act. Men tend to think, then act.

I believe woman come to their peers with a logical, holistic looking discussion; tending to go around the panel (several times) to be inclusive, but maybe a little indecisive when they neither have the latter or enough buy in or knowledge of a particular issue.

That being said; I hope there would have been more woman running for council - especially mature and experienced woman as council members.

I believe woman play a vital an important part to public service - but because they are the main social support for family, parents along with working - leaves little time to spare for their vital voice.

I hope that a female runs for Mayor - I wonder if Hazel would like to get out of T.O for 3 years?

Politically responsive to the public?

I think woman would be more inclusive. Men like Mr. Rosen and George will act on their beliefs without to much discussion.

They will be convinced early on of their mandate.

[Lydia]

Woman and men also think differently and woman tend to think, discuss, discuss and think again, discuss some more then act. Men tend to think, then act.

You are total correct. That is why we are in the condition we are in. Men thought and then acted and now trying to back out of their decision. lol lol.

Women yap, and yap, and yap again. They then learn more facts and that changes the situation and then they yap again. After several years, the yapping stops because they found everything out and only then does a MAN gain power and thinks the women did right and acts. lmao.


Please tell Mrs. *************s, to let go of your throat and not threaten you any more about the power of women. :D :D :D