A take on 'KTA" - one view of the Kingston Taxpayers Association

[posting]

Our contributors comment on a variety of local municipal issues. These 'Op-Ed' views are published here to further public discussion on these issues. They do not necessarily represent an editorial position by Kingston Electors.

Apparently, our good mayor (according to a letter posted on the website of Kingston's unelected taxpayers' association (http://kingstontaxpayersassociation.ca/WhyKTA.htm)) is "out of control." Writing to federal finance minister Jim Flaherty in a bid to stop government grants for Kingston's new entertainment centre, one Hugh Stafford has the following to say:

"There are serious issues that commenced at the beginning of 2004 following the municipal election of the present mayor, Harvey Rosen which many in this community believe to be the worst situation in Kingston's 333 year history."

and further.

"Correspondence objection on record claim this mayor has gone out of control."

Call me crazy, but it seems if anyone's out of control here it might be those who are misrepresenting themselves to federal ministers as the voice of Kingstonians. How many citizens this group even represents is a live question. In any event, bravo Mayor Rosen. Finally, a mayor who gets things done despite the historic interference of citizen lobby groups.

I admit I don't know many of the folks on the new Kingston Taxpayers Association but there are a few notables:

Bruce Todd. Can't recall when Mr. Todd hasn't had a negative position on a city initiative. From a turning lane on Gardiner's Road to the Wellington Street extention to John Counter Blvd to the entertainment centre and downtown parking, Mr. Todd has been there projecting gloom and doom.

Wlliam Glover. Sydenham Ward Tenants and Ratepayers Association. Major accomplishment of this group: Preventing the development of Block D for several decades. Objections to other initiatives, including a Hospice Kingston memorial in City Park, too numerous to mention.

Pat Good. Former PUC chairman. Has campaigned against the entertainment centre and hosted an anti-LVEC public meeting.

I expect we'll see all these taxpayer association representatives, if they wish to legitimately claim to represent Kingstonians, on a ballot this November?

Back to the letter. What's kind of funny about this campaign to stop LVEC funding is the target - Minister Flaherty. Anyone remember him? Finance minister under Mike Harris. And how did the Harris government view Kingston? Not fondly. And why was that? Might have had something to do with citizen lobbyists throwing bombs at the premier.

[Lydia]

What is the matter Posting, don't you like hearing the TRUTH about what the Kingston Taxpayer's Association is pointing out.

Had this council and previous councils had the GUTS AND BRAINS to have NEIGHBOURHOOD ASSOCIATIONS ESTABLISHED IN EACH AREA AND THEN STARTED TO LISTEN TO THE TAXPAYERS, just maybe there would not have been a NEED for the Kingston Taxpayer's Association in the first place.

Did you visit their website THAT shows How your councilor and every councilor votes on issues that are before us? I don't see any comments on that site about issues but i find it very interesting and NECESSARY. Hopefully they will allow people to voice opinions.

http://kingstontaxpayersassociation.ca

The reason the people sound so NEGATIVE is because of the CRAP THAT THE COUNCILORS AND ESPECIALLY THE MAYOR HAS THROWN AT US. When they stop the Crap then just maybe things will become positive. Just maybe for the first time in the last 333 years the people are standing up.

When you learn that 95% of the people in this city don't KNOW OR EVEN CARE TO KNOW who is running for council or mayor then you will understand that the people like Bruse Todd, Wlliam Glover, Pat Good, and Howard Stone the founder of the Kingston Taxpayer's Association are TRYING to make people wake up and realize the actual problem isn't the associations but Council itself.

[Exhibitionist]

Posting I entirely agree with your knowledge on these so called - "anti tax lobbists".

I can also confirm most expectically - Mr. Bruce Todd/ Mr. Butler rather underhanded and irresponsible representation of
the citizens in Kingston is legendary.

Mr. Butler infact claims (in a local forum here....)

That the "City is to blame for spending to much money investigating the LVEC".

But, when suggested to him:

...That his group and KCAL (influenced the change of the LVEC location) to the North Block -

a) associated costs for loss/ more staffing labour hours, investigating another site infastructure
b) AND the fact the North Block facility is now 30% smaller than the Anglin Bay site.

Ultimately; COSTING the "taxpayers" - because of these latter changes.. and especially
because we get 30% less for the same tax dollars!

- Along with where we are NOW with the new site: NO onsite parking, loss of marketing revenue etc. etc. etc.

I also offered this piece of information for "the taxpayers groups" - taxation 101 class:

Here is absolute proof:

Infact; Canada comparitively pays 30% LESS in overall taxes - than most countries in the G7.

We are VERY competitive with the US and UK- considering our social services, vast infastructure requirements...

i.e telecomunications, roads, railway etc. AND the fact our country is so large with such a small population base.

The OECD collects data on 30 member countries and annually calculates what it calls the tax "wedge" for each -- the combined effects of personal income tax, employee and employer social security contributions, residential, payroll taxes and cash benefits.

Tax burdens around the world: (FIRST % = single no kids, SECOND %= family of four)

Austria 47.4% 35.5%Luxembourg 35.3%12.2% Belgium 55.4% 40.3%, Mexico18.2%18.2%Canada 31.6%, 21.5%Netherlands38.6%29.1%Czech Republic43.8%27.1%New Zealand20.5%14.5%Denmark41.4%29.6%Norway37.3%29.6% Finland 44.6%, 38.4% Poland43.6% 42.1% France 50.1%, 41.7% Portugal36.2%26.6% Germany 51.8%, 35.7%Slovak Republic38.3%23.2%Greece38.8%39.2%Spain39.0%33.4%H ungary50.5%39.9%Sweden47.9%42.4%Iceland29.0%11.0% Switzerland 29.5%, 18.6% Ireland 25.7%8.1% Turkey 42.7%, 42.7% Italy45.4%35.2%
United Kingdom 33.5%, 27.1% Japan 27.7%24.9% United States 29.1%, 11.9% Source: OECD, 2005 data

Kingston Taxpayers Association "theory" on taxation does NOT reflect the reality of the world (you & I) live in.

[I.M.Pertinent]

Good heavens Lydia where do you come up with some of your ideas? Could you name another elected government that assumes responsibility for setting up an unelected body to do a job parallel to the one for which it was elected? Here on earth, we don’t elect politicians to set up taxpayer groups. We elect them for the express purpose of running our cities, provinces and countries themselves.

Since you’re a KTA member, perhaps you can tell us how many Kingstonians your organization purports to represent. I’d wager maybe 100, 150 max – out of 116,000 residents. And I’d bet the KTA membership list borrows heavily from the lists of KCAL, Sydenham Ward Tenants and Ratepayers, Citizens for Responsible Development Kingston and the Valley Lands Group. That’s not a taxpayer association, it’s merely another anti-development, anti-progress lobby group. I would also like to know on what basis your group claims to know the wishes of, and to represent, the majority of Kingstonians. Have you done public opinion research? Where are the results? Did you hold an election in which all citizens were invited to vote?

I’m all for truth, but I’m for both sides of truth, not just the side presented, for example, by KCAL with respect to LVEC. And I’m offended, like any citizen in a democracy should be, when a group of unelected lobbyists attempts to usurp the authority and responsibility of a legitimately elected governing body.

With respect to throwing “crap” as you so eloquently put it, I’ve been around the Kingston scene for a good long time and I can tell you unequivocally that there are many, many citizens (I’d bet thousands, if not tens of thousands) who feel that for the last 50 years or more, Kingston’s success has been undermined by the narrow interests of NIMBY-driven lobby groups. The hard reality of this can be seen in our tanking economy. We don’t have jobs. Companies don’t want to do business here because Kingston’s too unfriendly. Companies can and do, choose to conduct business in other places where they are welcome, instead of in Kingston, where battle armour is a necessary part of the corporate dress code. I would argue there is closer to 95% of the population sick to death of the endless complaining and political maneuvering of lobby groups, whatever name they go by.

As the boy who cried wolf can attest, the problem with raising the alarm all the time is that people eventually get tired of listening to the same old issues and tune out the noise.

Ex – agree with you completely. Lobby groups bear the lion’s share of responsibility for driving up costs on LVEC. Ditto Block D and other projects too numerous to list. Don't know about you, but I'm really tired of the big red herring: “The public wasn’t consulted.” Fed up with having to listen to decades of complaints before anything gets built, or before projects get so bogged down by lobbyists that they never get built. We all know that no amount of public consultation will satisfy and the so-called “public outcry” will always be the same issues, from the same quarter. I would encourage council to turn even more of a deaf ear on lobbyists, including KTA.

[Evelyn King]

;) I Do Hope These References To Lobby Groups Are Also Directed At The Business Community As They Have Had A Great Influence On This Current Council.

I Wish More People Would Take The Time To Attend City Council Meetings Or At Least Watch Them On The Television. It Sure Has Opened My Eyes.

Everyone Has An Opinion, They Have The Right To Their Opinion, But The Only Opinion That Truly Counts Is The Result Of The Election.

Best Regards,

Evelyn King

[Exhibitionist]

Pertinent - I cannot agree with you more with these "self proclaimed lobby groups" (undermining) the progress of this community.

Their persistent surreptitious style of influence has caused much more harm than good for peoples (both elected and their electors) looking for a better way to do business. i.e developing good paying work, positive business development and transparency through elected and progressive minded means.

An example:

KCAL - recently removed (the Electors Link) off KCAL site ...

- Once not so "supportive critisizm"" seem to be developing for the KCAL site and their mandate of misinformation.

They also have published - "old USA reports" that have little to do with our LVEC situation - but they use as (fact) to substantiate their "conspiracy theorists".

As soon as you question any of their (site misinformation) or the persons that have contributed - they use excuses such as: "they do not need to respond to anyones questioning". And any coorespondence I have had with them was regarding their information - they become beligerant and down right threating!

These are NOT the groups; (or more importantly the "style" of doing business) our community needs nor wants.

NOR are they "Neighbourhood Associations" that I am familar with now or have been in the past in Toronto.

The McBurney PARK Association (which is probably the most vibrant in the City) are not affiliated with KCAL. KTRA or KE what so ever.

They neither endorse them, finance or promote them.
(nor should they without a mandate to do so)

Neither of these groups have a history, board structure and any elective members process in their organisation.

MPA (McBurney Park Association) are purely a volunteer group of people that manage to "sometimes" publish a small "neighbourhood focused" informative newsletter, organise kid friendly solstice events and periodically have local meetings regarding the possible "priorities" the neighbourhood may wish to pursue.

Generally; from these occassional meetings: some representatives arrange to meet directly with Department City Staff to gain insight, direction i.e on issues such as neighbourhood city work projects, tree planting and have offered local fundraising monies for these community interests. (They work with locally elected officials in most / if not all initiatives)

a) I certainly would NOT compare KCAL, KTRA or KE to McBurney Park Association - as suggested by Lydia.
(MPA has a much larger representation of the community) - than any of the latter groups combined.

b) MPA is also not "militant" in their behaviour and do not use misinformation, scare or threatening "tatics"
to get there message or priorities across.

So, please do not suggest in any shape or form that "your" membership groups - act, represent or
are the same as my (local community "multipurpose" - neighbourhood association)


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Evelyn says quite clearly we have a "democratic process" - we should respect (it) and who (we) elected.

The difference between (the latter economic terrorists) KCAL, KTA and the "Chamber of Commerce" is that at least the "Chamber Members" have 100 times more members (on paper) and come from communities from every district on a variety of issues.

They also have (elected officials) from a large sector of this community - including non profit and for profit members.

i.e members such as - The Boys and Girls Club, United Way and of course alot of retail and service businesses that promote Kingston, invest in its community, employ (us) and (you) know and use their services every day.

I guarrantee they have a much "broader stake and community base" than rogue KCAL or Taxation Groups.

They also have generally treated my family, my neighbours and I with some mutual respect.

[Lydia]

Thank you Pertinent for asking me where I get my ideas. To answer your question of any elected government that assums responsibilty for seting up an unelected body to do a job parallel to the one for which it was elected, I will tell you. Brampton, Ontario. Originally they had the same concepts that Kingston had, No accountability to the people. All of a sudden there were NEIGHBOURHOOD ASSOCIATIONS in every district that consulted with the people, These Associations spoke about issues that the Councilors in the City didn’t want people to know about. All of a sudden when it came to elections, the Associations (WHICH communicated with the public) indicated who they wanted as their councilors in their district. Wow, a NEW BETTER COUNCIL who listened to the public and dealt with the city as a WHOLE and accomplished what the older version never could.

If the present system is doing so great, please tell me WHY ON EARTH only 5% of the people here in Kingston can tell you immediately when canvassed who their councilors are? If the present system is doing so great please tell me WHY ON EARTH is it that only 35% of the public even come out to vote. I will tell you why. People are tired of the Crap that the Lobbyists and more so of the COUNCIL. are shoveling out.

I am a member of the KCAL, I am a member of the KTA, I am a member of the KE, I am a resident of this City. I am for the LVEC, I am for the Multiplex, I am for Kedco, I am for businesses. And more than anything else I am for people of this city getting a voice that will speak up for them. Surprise, Surprise, I even am for Council to keep the structure they already have with one addition. What is sooooooooooo wrong with wanting Council to set up Neighbourhood Associations which can deal with Projects, Problems, etc to inform Council members what the PUBLIC, TAXPAYERS wants.

When I go to the polls to vote, I don’t want LYERS, THEIVES, to strip us of what we want and I don’t want councilors who don’t give a dam about the people who voted for them.

People who are against the ordinary citizen expressing their opinions are usually they ones who are the very people who influence councilors by PAYING FOR FAVOURS. This is also known as bribery. These people who are against the ordinary citizen are the ones who have ruined this country. Think back 30 years ago, The quality of life then was excellent and the envy of the world. Isn’t it interesting that the quality of life now sucks. Tell me are you as well off today as you were 30 years ago?

If people are so happy, why do we have all the drugs, sickness, debt, etc. Why does it take TWO people working in order to survive? Why is there more children dropping out of schools as compared to 30 years ago??? Why is it that children getting into University don’t even know their times tables. Why are people still illerate?

Gloom and Doom, People are tuning off. I agree, but it was not because of the KCAL, KTA, or KE, it is because of the way our Governments have been dealing with us. The reason businesses are leaving Kingston or choosing not to come to Kingston is simply because it is the friendly attitude that presides in this city. Us versus Them, Downtowners versus Townships, Northern, Eastern and Western. Do you really think that if the LVEC is ever built that it will be the saving grace for this city? Do you really think that Parking is NOT an issue or a problem? Do you really think that people even care about problems?

Instead of putting down the KCAL, KTA, and KE websites and people, try encouraging MORE, get involved, get to know how your neighbour truly feels and why. Don’t try shutting them up.

[Lydia]

Okay, IMPertenint and *************, I have a question for both of you.

Would you favour the following: ( I certainly would prefer this system over Lobbying)


IF A PERSON HAS BEEN ELECTED FOR A GOVERNMENTAL POSITION, PUTS FORTH A COMPLETE BUDGET AND PROJECT ANALYSIS AND MAKES THE PUBLIC COMPLETE AWARE OF EVERY ASPECT AND GETS VOTED INTO THAT POSITION, THEN NO LOBBYING WOULD EVER BE ALLOWED. THAT PERSON MUST DO ONLY WHAT HE/SHE HAS BEEN VOTED IN TO DO AND NOTHING ELSE UNLESS THE PERSON CONSULTS WITH THE PUBLIC BY WAY OF A REFERENDUM.

SHOULD THIS PERSON NOT DO WHAT THAT PERSON PRESENTED TO THE PUBLIC, OR IF THE PERSON WAS BRIBED, OR IF THE PERSON WAS FOUND TO BE A LIER OR A THEFT THEN THAT PERSON IS DISMISSED OUT OF OFFICE IMMEDIATELY AND NOT ALLOWED TO COMPLETE HIS/HER TERM IN OFFICE.

Would you favour that process instead of allowing lobbying? Personally i would support that process complete, I would never ever even complain or be negative towards that representative. Come on on let's see how transparent you all are.

I call hear you all now, asking what planet i am from, Where does that happen? NO WHERE. Just imagine a system where people KNOW what and why to vote for and be content.