Wasting Tax Dollars/Stop Spending on LVEC

[Jim Butler]

Why is it that with the fate of the LVEC uncertain, the City continues to pour money into this facility. Furthermore, why would they proceed with selling box seating that will most likely get spent on construction or construction releated costs that may have to be returned? Unless perhaps, someone knows more than we are hearing. Which would not surprise me given the current leadership of city council. Regardless, the money will get spent and where will the money come from to reimburse those who purchased box seating in advance? MORE TAXES!

[Exhibitionist]

I agree with you it is rather premature - given funding grants have not been confirmed nor the North Block site
- (which is the incorrect site) SHOULD HAVE BEEN: ANGLIN BAY OR MAYBE ..MEMORIAL CENTRE....

I would also suggest they (the City) are gathering a sense of the monies available for the facility. For funding purposes.

(Obviously -They would give back the (same collected monies) - if the project does not go through.)

I would also warrant most of monies spent : (i.e investigating and studies) - were vaild on such a project.

I would say it is a necessary evil. (for any reasonable project investigation)

Since the majority at that time wished to (at least) "investigate a new facility".

Thats what it costs!

I also believe groups like yourself, KTRA, KCAL have "skewed the process" and have caused the (extra MAJOR costs) associated with the LVEC. - Not the City.

1) by not supporting the Anglin Bay proposal. - (the more cost effective, diverse use, better functionallity facility)

2) by "supporting" - the North Block facility. (with its same price tag, no parking and restrictions for future use/expansion)

In fact; we are now potentially getting an LVEC that is 30% smaller / and less adapable for the SAME COST!

That was you , your group help do - not the City! hey had the correct spot.

- Please don't try to pin the MILLIONS and "extra expenses to move" the facility
on the City)

This is your/groups doing and KCAL's doing!

Your perspective or conspiracy theory seems also rather quick, bias and overly conspicuious.

[Evelyn King]

City Council will be voting on May 23rd on whether to proceed further or not.

With the lack of any government funding or grants available by this day, the vote is there at city council to stop the LVEC.

Best regards,

Evelyn King

[Jim Butler]

Hi Evelyn,

Thanks for your reply,

You are absolutely correct in your statement concerning Osprey Media wishing to hire free lance reporters thus putting the hired reporters jobs at risk. I would have to ask Osprey Media (and perhaps I will) if the Whig Standard is loosing money or do they just want more money in their pockets. I am very much against this policy and hope that Osprey Media comes to realize the importance of know the name behind the article.

Jim Butler

[Don Anderson]

After watching and listening in recent years to LVEC and KEDCO issues, it seems curious that city councilpersons haven't moved to hire a zookeeper. Kingston is the Serengeti of elephant traffic here in Eastern Ontario.

Usually when one suspects an elephant is in the room, we are witness to a pressing issue that needs to be talked out but no one reckons it in their best interest to do so. It is that rare moment when folks (some elected to office) who don't think they believe in the possibility of mental telepathy look around the room and know they are sharing the same thought but still refuse to be amazed or talk about it. Here in Kingston sometimes those same folks sense they are experiencing déjà vu but they aren't talking about that either. Now for those drunk with political power, the elephant may be pink and may even be galloping but there is usually only one witness and still no one is talking. If the elephant is white, the witnesses are often poorer and suffer what feels like Ashura self flagellating humiliation but still, there is that denial thing going on.

This is the 60th anniversary of Disney's animated classic "Dumbo" and I just know I will be humming " ...when I see an elephant fly" for the rest of the day.

[Jim Butler]

Mr. or Mrs. *************,

Thank you for your reply,

I have to disagree with you on your idea of where the LVEC should have been built. The decisions to locate this facility on Anglin Bay was in total disregard to the business that operated on that property. There was no other suitable location to move some of them to another location. As for where it should be built now, it shouldn't.

I agree with you that there are necessery costs associated in the presconstruction of a facility of this magnitude. However it makes no sense to do it twice. Over $1.5 million has been spent on this project to date, maybe more! The selling of box seats with the likely scenario of having to pay those back when the facility does not get final approval is just another waste of time and more tax dollars.

Conerning your comment, Since the majority at that time wished to (at least) "investigate a new facility", who is this majority you speak of? I did not wish to investigate anything more than pulling the plug on a project that the majority of people I know, and whom you seem to know, wanted as well. Had there been a referendum put forward we wouldn't be wasting our time on this matter.

I see not only by your response to this post but others that I have been browsing which you have posted, that you our quick to point the finger at other individuals or groups that do not have the same view on issues in Kingston as you. Thanks to sites like Kingston Electors we are able to do just that unlike city council meetings where we have been silenced and the councillors have no names. And most of us believe strongly enough in our opinions to put our name behind them. Unlike certain individuals.

Your accusation that groups such as mine and KCAL have
skewed the process" is expected from someone obviously in favor of the visions the current Mayor of Kingston has for the City of Kingston. Visions that have and will continue to cost taxpayers millions of dollars for years to come. We can build an LVEC which we cannot afford but we can't put the money where it should be going. INFRASTRUCTURE! But then you probably don't live in an area where raw sewage backs up into your home when we get heavy rains. One more thing, what do you really know about groups like King's Town Residents Association. I don't if you know anything more than seeing the name pop up in letters to the editor or on this site. I doubt that you have a clue what all we do so I will be sure to invite you to our next meeting. I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

And finally the responsibility for every dime spent on this crumbling LVEC is the reponsibility of our current Mayor. With the lack of public input (on purpose if you can see), poor planning, fast pacing for both sites, and total disregard to repeated requests for more public input ignored, there is no other individual or organization that can be held reponsible and anyone who believes that must have voted right along with the Mayors favourite concillors. 9-4, 9-4, 9-4, 8-5 oops...must have been a bad night for one of them!

In summary, until you are not afraid to stand behind your accusations and comments with your name, I will take them with a grain of salt.

Jim Butler

[Exhibitionist]

1 SEE BY THE BARELY 24 HOUR SURVEY - ABOVE OF 6 PEOPLE

- IS AGAIN ANOTHER EXAMPLE: OF A VERY "SKEWED AND RATHER POOR ATTEMPT OF PUBLIC OPINION".

I WONDER THE INTERNAL COMMUNITY TIES HERE ????


I have to disagree with you on your idea of where the LVEC should have been built. The decisions to locate this facility on Anglin Bay was in total disregard to the business that operated on that property. There was no other suitable location to move some of them to another location. As for where it should be built now, it shouldn't.

As I suggested:

You and KCAL are the ones that are: "costing the City Taxpayers"

A) for FORCING THE (moving) of the LVEC i.e - city staff time, new studies, preliminary infastructure costs ..etc. etc.

B) I am not speaking ONLY to - locating or relocating a small business in the Bay. (Which could have been done)

C) The cost - would have been allowable in the budget. (frankly a more appropriate place than the current eye soar.)


To "force" the site change of the LVEC because of your group (s) short term thinking is outragious.

Now we maybe stuck with no parking, no marketing funding, little logistical transport needs, no convention facility, and restricted for future use and all for the (same cost) as of the Anglin Bay site.

You should at least understand one fact: that the building costs the same at the North Block for 30% less!

You waisted: City staff time and taxpayers money!


Conerning your comment, Since the majority at that time wished to (at least) "investigate a new facility", who is this majority you speak of? I did not wish to investigate anything more than pulling the plug on a project that the majority of people I know, and whom you seem to know, wanted as well. Had there been a referendum put forward we wouldn't be wasting our time on this matter.


You are obvoiusly a little more 1 dimentional than I had thought.

This has always "seemed" to be the only "grey" argument - that the naysays have (assumed)
- even though they and most voted for the Mayor in a landslide!

Fully Knowing...........

Fact: The mandate in the election is to "replace the 50 year old Memorial Centre". (You are not that dumb?)



I see not only by your response to this post but others that I have been browsing which you have posted, that you our quick to point the finger at other individuals or groups...

Frankly; unlike the groups mentioned: After much research and questions asking (and more importantly my 20 experience in such facilities) - I give my (critical opinion) on subjects I frankly know more about than most - who do not. I have also been consistent with facts and experience with this subject illustrating its positive and not so positive formulas - depending on the ultimate directions the City, Public and the stakholders agreed to.

Fact: KCAL - web site openly offers (only "negative" opinions/ research) with regards to "the LVEC". It has nothing positive (or real proof) at all on their site.

I looked up Ms. Mary Louise Adams' references (http://www.kcal.ca/Letter_Mary_Louise_Adams.html). (A associate professor at Queens) that submitted "research papers" on LVEC's and their history.

In fact; after discussing "the papers" with her and finding them relating to: 100,000 seat baseball stadiums in the slums, of the USA - along with other misleading data with regards to the examples: non multipupose usage, industry economic news based on early 1990 decline in basball in general.., and many other unrelated "skewed" features on the report.

She admitted the reports were "mutually exclusive" of our LVEC and did not know the KCAL where "highlighting there relavence". She has also recently admitted she has NO expertise in any LVEC and the materials she publically offered.


And finally the responsibility for every dime spent on this crumbling LVEC is the reponsibility of our current Mayor. With the lack of public input (on purpose if you can see), poor planning, fast pacing for both sites, and total disregard to repeated requests for more public input ignored,

This statement is absolutely false.

The mayor has followed a (process) that began with a task force of local leaders. They came back within a reasonable amount of time with reasonable recommendations for the LVEC. The business plan offered (as all plans) are NOT an exact science. But, it was reasonable to say from experts in the field the LVEC was needed, asked for and had opportunity for success with the Anglin Bay site location.

Fact: There was public input then and forums and council debates to move forward with the recommendations or not.

As the (democratic voting system) indicated they move forward with the (process) i.e marketing studies, parking studies and construction (renderings). Always debated and always in public. (On Cogeco, newspapers and forums.) And on the street and local establishment across the city.

I have also been consistent in my opinions. I have more hands on knowledge on this subject than most in this city that have been on the learning curve with regards to these types of facilities. I think that has some value.

I personally have no need (nor would I suggest to anyone) to publish your or my personal information on the internet.

I appologies if you do not think I have have any right to my opinions on these matters.

But, I believe this is what the forum is all about.

I am not misleading in any way by suggesting issues from experience.

And I agree with you - it is not popular or easy to "uninform the public media". (especially the ones that need it most)

[Jim Butler]

I expected nothing different from your response. I know it's a rough job knowing everything there is to know about anything and doing it better than anyone else can, but take a look at your response before you call me one dimensional.

You commented and blamed someone else for everything except you missed commenting on backed up sewers. That tells me you don't live in an area that has this problem and don't really care.

I will also correct you on stating that I do not think you have the right to your opinion. I said because you are afraid to stand behind your opinions without your name that I would take them with a grain of salt. So spout off all you like but do not put words in my mouth.

And for the record, you can quit referring to KCAL with every post you make concerning this topic. I am not a member and I am expressing my own opinion which as you would agree, I have the right to do. I did support their efforts and will continue to do everything I can to keep the LVEC from being built. Although you do not care, there are too many people that cannot afford the high taxes and the huge debt this project will create and that will be passed on to the taxpayer.

By the way...I would not want my children chatting with an individual on the internet using the name *************. I have to wonder how you got that nickname...

Here is some good news. You will not have to worry about me wasting your time or causing all of the City's problems with costs on the LVEC, because I will not bother to reply to someone who is to cowardly to be known while making accusations against individuals and groups as you so quickly do. Everyone else is to blame! That sounds too much like the words coming from the real responsible party sitting on our City Council. Come out with your name and gain respect. Otherwise as I stated I will take your comments with a grain of salt. And please do not misquote me on this again. You go right ahead and keep on mouthing off to everyone about all that you know. You already have those who listen and respond to you but I do not have the time to waste on a fictitious character.

Jim Butler
KTRA

[Evelyn King]

;) Well Said Jim, I Am With You, I Choose To Ignore.

Happy Easter To All,

Best Regards,

Evelyn King

[Exhibitionist]

LOOK AT THE GRAND THEATRE - WHAT A DISASTER!

(IT SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN RENOVATED TO THE TUNE OF $ 15 MILLION) - WHAT A WAIST OF TAX PAYERS MONIES!!!



You commented and blamed someone else for everything except you missed commenting on backed up sewers. That tells me you don't live in an area that has this problem and don't really care.

I do not "blame everyone else", nor do I wish to.

(your group is a giant blame machine - you even have a web site dedicated to "blame")


I simple state the obvious....

If you influence "changes" on a project - it either costs you less or more.

... (in time or money) OR BOTH!

In this case (with yoour groups /web site etc.) - it costed the taxpayers - more!

I was in the Trade Show and Multimedia Presentation Industry a long time.....

i.e Working on huge, and not so huge projects at the ROM, Museums, Skydome, Autoshows, Computer Shows, overseas trade fairs, Olympics etc. around the world.

Longer than you or anyone here. I simply can offer some insight into these types of facilities usage, economic trends etc. more than the general publics infrequent visits to the CNE, or Corel Centre. (Which neither are LVEC's by the way)

I am sure you have a professional career, or expertise, insight call it what you will. I would be interested to know more about it and its value to these conversations.

But, I must first suggest:

I certainly do not give you, KCAL / KTRA, KE groups (members) permission in any shape or form - to represent me or anyone else in our community - either in (public letters, emails or meetings or any public event.) - "as the voice of Kingstonians".

It is OUR choice alone of what we do with our tax dollars NOT yours.

That "choice" and option for us - is called the municipal election.

I also believe KTRA's "theory" on taxation is NOT reflective of the reality of this world!

Infact; Canada comparitively pays 20-30% LESS in overall taxes
- than most countries below.

We are VERY competitive with the US and UK- considering our social services, vast infastructure requirements...

i.e telecomunications, roads, railway etc. - and a country so large with such a small population base.

The OECD collects data on 30 member countries and annually calculates what it calls the tax "wedge" for each -- the combined effects of personal income tax, employee and employer social security contributions, residential, payroll taxes and cash benefits.

Tax burdens around the world: (FIRST % = single no kids, SECOND %= family of four)

Austria 47.4% 35.5%Luxembourg 35.3%12.2% Belgium 55.4% 40.3%, Mexico18.2%18.2%Canada 31.6%, 21.5%Netherlands38.6%29.1%Czech Republic43.8%27.1%NewZealand20.5%14.5%Denmark41.4% 29.6%Norway37.3%29.6%Finland 44.6%, 38.4% Poland43.6% 42.1% France 50.1%, 41.7% Portugal36.2%26.6% Germany 51.8%, 35.7%SlovakRepublic38.3%23.2%Greece38.8%39.2%Spain 39.0%33.4%Hungary50.5%39.9%Sweden47.9%42.4%Iceland 29.0%11.0% Switzerland 29.5%, 18.6% Ireland 25.7%8.1% Turkey 42.7%, 42.7% Italy45.4%35.2% United Kingdom 33.5%, 27.1% Japan27.7%24.9% United States 29.1%, 11.9% Source: OECD, 2005 data

I would highly suggest you NOT take the following as a "grain of salt".

Speaking of misquoting:

Any letters, emails or public proclaimations - you may wish to write proclaiming/misrepresenting yourselve(s) (KCAL, KTRA or KE) to federal ministers etc.
- "as the voice of Kingstonians."

OR

Misrepresenting or covert Insinuating regarding a citizens "character" under the Privacy Act.

You should be aware in this or any public forum in the future....

You may find yourself in ALOT of hot water.

We will see if (you) wish to put your name behind that situation.

Lets just stick to the "realities" of the issues.

And try to offer proof or experience(s) in such matters.

Then an only then will we respect ones (critical opinion.)