Two Stadiums... leave little room for public debate

[posting]

Click here (http://www.kingstonelectors.ca/article.php?id=359) to see an article on Two Stadiums. No Waiting:Yanks and Mets plans leave little room for public debate

Fast tracking the 'democratic process' seems to be a common theme in stadium development.

- Kingston Electors

[Exhibitionist]

Posting - no offence but I do not think a (1.8 billion dollar US) baseball stadium has anything to do with our 37 million dollar LVEC. Your stadium nightmare is a 100,000 seat stadium, one that is revitalizing a urban decayed US downtown area.

And with respect to your "skydome nightmare", I believe you should take a few minutes (first) and actually READ the LVEC business plan or at least visit a convention centre or Labatts Centre before coming up with such misleading information.

:eek:

[SLN]

I've just spent hours researching similar projects across North America. There's more for me to do , but I've made a start, anyway. Here's the link for my findings, which are all cited:

LVEC Research at Kingston ,Oh! Kingston (http://kingstonok.blogspot.com/)

I notcie, Ex, that you still haven't answered the question I posed to you there. What exactly is your expertise on arenas and their impact on small cities?

[Exhibitionist]

SLN - I appreciate MORE of this type of somewhat loss "research" over the first examples.

If you take a look at KCAL site their "pillars of research" are also based on large billion dollar baseball statiums are just wrong and misleading.

I also know that infact (yes) they are not money making ventures in of them selves. I also know the NO side are concerned mainly about their taxes and the "cost of living" now that has increased in the Canadian/North American culture. We are frankly starting to pay for many bad habits and excessive lifestyles that our parents seemed to have enjoyed and are use to. I think this mentallity leading to (tax/cost of living) is fuelled from this new reality in the 21st century.

But, some other more micro thinking points:

The point is do we wish to continue with the Memorial Centre as our large community event facility and loss our hockey franchise. There are many other long term reasons and necessities beyond these beyond the latter that we do know of. Memorial Centre needs (at least) 10 million to refurbish, bring up to code, i.e wheel chair accessable, upgrade electrical, HVAC etc along with the need to help support the downtown area against large box stores in the West end. I believe the "better of the two evils" was and still is in my mind to build the facility (original size design) at Anglan Bay. It is the best building out of the two proposals (design TBD) to provide a "multipupose facility". Allowing for diverse uses. The Canadian facility examples that you give "generally" are not "multipurpose", are not situated downtown and do not have the population demographics and the exclusivity that Kingston does have compared to Niagara Falls are - inwhich there are so many competing venues and cities.

I have aways said that these facilities are not for profit facilities in terms of the balance sheet. But, they do help local downtown existing businesses and do have economic spinoffs for the community. Especially as Kingston is not seen as a very business friendly enviroment. Unfortunately; also Kingston has lost 2-3000 good paying jobs in the past 5 years. The idea of putting maybe 20 million of our money towards investing in economic (perceived and actual business development) to me is a very good idea compared to the alternatives. i.e KEDCO for the past 10 years, and or sewers. The LVEC on the whole - in my mind is a much better investment than the latter.

I am sorry - I did not see that you have asked of my interest (or stake) I suppose in this matter.

I have 20 years experience in event and trade show industry. I have a small company that supplies products & services for the industry. But, don't let that make you think - I am "in to" the yes people just on my credentials. In fact; I believe the LVEC will not be a business benefit for my company. In fact; because of insurance, embedded & fly by night competition and many other reasons the LVEC may not be my best friend.

I have also done my research. You may also like to get a more balanced research information by visiting: a member group tsea, edac in Canada.

Or articles and links from http://www.exhibitornet.com

[SLN]

Ex,

The link you provided is somewhat difficult to access unless I were to become a member. I'd like to know what they say in the "Site SElection Checklist" to see how the Kingston facility would measure up. I did look at some other site selection checklists though, and noted that parking was a BIG item. Our facility is lacking in parking.

The fact that you are in a business that would have more chances to make money should the city build this facility clearly does give the appearance of bias in favour of the project. You say that there are embedded competitors that would prevent you (maybe) from profit-making - this is interesting - do you believe that these interests are in bed with the city? Do you think that the builders, leasholders, etc might also be in bed with the city?

Finally, as to my research and your reply to it, htere are a few things I'd like to clear up. The facilites I looked at are INDEED multi-purpose facilites. It is wrong of you to claim that they are not. That is exactly what they are and I woldn't have included them if they weren't.

Also, I couldn't find anything so far to indicate that there were economic spin-offs to the city. Just because you keep saying they exist, does not make it so. Perhaps you have some links you could give me to support your claim. I searched and searched.

One expert, Michael Marion, who manages one of the arenas in my article, says unequivocally that concerts are the money-makers for these types of venues. I went on to show that the Peterborough Multi-use facility has very few concerts scheduled - (2, to be exact). The Kamloops facility also has only two booked. These are both very similar to the LVEC in size and the cities are similar to ours, as well.

The niagara falls example is a good one, also, since it has to contend with the same sorts of issues we in Kingston do. They are a mid-point between bigger cities, just like we are and the arena was to be the same size. Even though there are many more building incentives offered by State and federal government to build in NIagara Falls, they decided against it.

Look, I like the idea, too. I would love to go see a concert here once in a while - to take in a trade show, a dog show - or anything like that. I don't even really object to the location. I just think - as I said in my blog - that we have more important priorities right now. If we fix those and get more industry here THEN we can have a treat. I know you think that it should go the other way around, but I don't see it.

And oh yeah - KEDCO shouldn't get near as much money as it does. I agree with you there. They are sucking at their jobs.

[Exhibitionist]

Some of the links - are there to give you an industry (sense) of the expansion of trade show related industries.

Fact: Trade shows are the least expensive way to advertise per customer. Trade Shows have expanded by 10 fold since the 70's. Trade Shows bring into a city - various businesses from around the globe - that show there wears, industrial shows, consumer shows and bring new industry/companies in - that then see (first hand) what Kingston is like.

Instead of a web site! (all other cities have this!)

Or expensive advertising in T.O! (1 million plus a year) x 30 years.....

Not having Kedco to convince the industry to come here. For 3 million a year! (x 30 years)

Ekk - I just paid for the facility there!

This is not hard math.

(Kingston like London) are also research Cities. Most research on consumer and industrial trends are done in both these cities before launching marketing plans. I believe the extra opportunity to exposure to the City is being bypast. Or wasted. I believe concerts (see: market study) will be here.

We are central to 3 of the largest Cities in Canada/North America. And Syracuse is not far away.

Fact: Our existing Tourist Industry in Kingston is not going to be negative this year and to come? The exchange rates are killing American travel, and strengthing Canadians disposable income.

Either your a very nieve "Kingstonian" to think we can WAIT for "quality" attraactions/entertainment - for Americans and Canadian/Europeans alike...or provide sewers.

Well - the horse needs to come first - then the cart. Not the other way around 40 million on roads etc. is NOTHING!

This is big picture long term thinking.

Lack of parking (in relation to the Kingston Master Transportation Plan) is how we should really think of the LVEC re: parking. You should read it.

Infact; most LVEC type of facilities I have ever worked in usually have underground/under the facility for some parking, loading/unloading/ docks, catering and operational facilities. Anglan Bay could do this. North Block cannot. (so far)

MTCC centre in Toronto has little parking - except for expensive spots infront.
But, they have a subway and bus service that works quite well to bring people in.


MTCC has made profits, Place Bonaventure makes profits and McCormick place in Chicago makes a profit! So, don't tell me they (all) don't. That is misleading.

Generally speaking: people in Kingston also have NO experience of such facilities.

They have never had one! Believe me the occasional visit to the Skydome for the Garden Show, EX, etc. is what most of the long term citizens only know here. I have also heard/read in the Whig - many times " the LVEC is like Skydome" in Toronto and look what happened there"! This is purposperous. Fear mongering.

Just as a note: "Kingstonians" are also always amazed by the somewhat "basic" display products I have. (Its like they never have seen them before!)

In T.O etc. my product lines are rather simple and have been around for
30 years! This is telling. And I do not need a research paper to prove this.

I have also lived on the front lines of this industry - trying to help companies./ non profits and individuals with their image/ products etc. for the past 8 years with lots of different inquiries from here.

And frankly most of my business is NOT here for us.

Here are lots of reasons:

A) you have no facilities,
B) there are fewer businesses/and little business culture,
C) its a HUGE learning curve for the most basic products

- its not worth it. I have better clients in Belleville, T.O than here.

And I will give you another reason why we are NOT influenced by the facility either way -

Insurance - IF they build this facility - we would need to have insurance 5 x the cost we pay for now to even - install a booth than the MTCC.

i.e if you are "installing" a booth for a client: (with live bodies - booth for a client from floor to ceiling, electrical, water whatever) maybe at most 10 booths a year in the Kingston LVEC - but T.O has currently 500 more shows - than we would ever here.

1) The cost of 5 million dollar insurance (per year) can be spread over 500 instead of 10.

2) And I know that some companies around here are suddenly interested in "getting into" providing trade show related items - but have no experience (because they have never had a facility here) and have no support services, experienced installers, innovative support and even products. (brings the industry down) i.e Costs and professionalism.

3) I am competing with NEW unexperienced competition wanting a quick buck rather than "investing" like we did and come from 20 years of experience.

4) So, frankly we will not turn business away - but I guarrantee 80-90% of our business will not be here. (There is a long learning curve for companies here for the industry)

And my point regarding the Anglan Bay facility comes from really the "multipurpose" in terms of conference facilities, tradeshow facilities and having a hockey game at the same time. You will NOT be able to do that at the North Block site. You could at the Anglan Bay! Remember the facility NOW is 30% smaller than Anglan Bay. (But, for the same price tag)

Typically trade shows etc. run Jan - end of May. Why - because people are around then - they are not at their cottages, holidays, travelling as much during the winter. They are also looking for something to do/and they look to spring (Home Shows) etc. They are VERY popular. It is typically quiet during the summer months (then picks up for the fall events). I know Kingston will not get the Auto Shows, Large shows etc. I have infact written an article on this to the Whig.

But,the Anglan Bay site was designed for smaller trade shows, dog shows, winter fairs, and events, but more importantly "conferences" through Queens, RMC and outside the city associations. Our facilities here now cannot accommodate such conferences. I know - I run them!

The hotels are bursting here, non profits are struggling to find places to fundraise, outside groups are being turned away. You have no idea the loss in tourism and long term money in conference space.

You also must keep in mind these are LONG term commitments. You cannot for a moment convince well run facilities that over 30 years they have not benefitted a community. And really as I have tried to explain 37 million is nothing in terms of over 30 years, 250,000,000 budget the City runs (every year) and compared to European and US facilities. It is really telling that people do not get this. All they focus on is the 1% tax increases over 30 years. Well; I tell you I appreciate the concern but its a mistake to think this facility is such a black hole.

I do not wish to seem arogant like I "know" it will be perfect. But, it helps if you actually have been in the industry.

One - problem I see is them raiding the coffers for 3 million - in the City. Unless we get some commitment of grants - I would just delay the facility until both Kingston gets nailed again with job losses (which it will) or when
some of the water treatment facility bills get paid back. Its not necessary the best financial time for citizens to swallow so much (past infastructure projects) especially when you North Americans have had it so good for to long. Hard one to sell these days.

[SLN]

I appreciate your detailed response.

I can definitely see the benefit of having a facility which could hold a sporting event AND a trade show at the same time. Naturally, it would improve traffic, even if only marginally.

I also agree that having Trade shows and other shows here would be a good way to advertise our city. What I fear, however, is that people will come for the shows, like the downtown area, and then look in to what it would be like to live here and find out that we have no doctors for newcomers, that there aren't any jobs, that our roads are crap, that we dump untreated sewage into our picturesque waterways, that there are homeless all over the main streets, and that housing prices are way too high.

I say that advertising our city before we've got anything to offer people is putting the cart before the horse. It's a catch-22 in some ways.

I'm curious as to why Queen's can't find facilites. How large are their conferences? We've got the Ambassador, The Ramada, the Howard Johnsons, The Holiday Inn, the M-Center (such as it is), and Queen's itself has facilites. There are also some rentable spaces at RMC and CFB Kingston.

In the City's LVEC fact sheet, it says that they hope to provide a good venue for minor and OHL hockey, mainly. This rubs me the wrong way. I don't think hockey is the be-all and end-all of a community - the youth of this city need other options for things to do. Did you know they have renamed some of the arenas "Youth Centers" Youth Centers, huh? Not so much. Upper-middle class white boy NHL-dream factories, maybe. The culture surrounding hockey is cut-throat competition and I fail to see the spin-offs from hockey moms and dads that already live in Kingston. Sorry if that sounds harsh.

Parking - the city wants to make extra money from parking in the downtown. An extra 2 million a year, I believe it says in their documentation. Will this all come from meters, or do you think they hope to be able to charge parking FINES? I object to a plan that scemes to increase parking violations in order to profit from them. I wonder if all the streets that currently disallow parking between 10-11 a.m. and 2 and 3 p.m will still have those restrictions. It's a blatant attempt to force people to incur a fine. In a way, isn't that entrapment?

My problems are these:
- as you said, they shouldn't raid the coffers for the extra money
- they should look for a private partner
- the facility as planned is too small
- the parking issue is nasty
- we need to get doctors, jobs and make necessary infrastructure repairs (particularly the sewage issue) before we go ahead and advertise this city as "a great place to live and do business.
- how much extra taxation can the downtown business area withstand?????

[Exhibitionist]

I appreciate your concerns:

My problems are these:
- as you said, they shouldn't raid the coffers for the extra money
- they should look for a private partner
- the facility as planned is too small
- the parking issue is nasty
- we need to get doctors, jobs and make necessary infrastructure repairs (particularly the sewage issue) before we go ahead and advertise this city as "a great place to live and do business.
- how much extra taxation can the downtown business area withstand?????

I cannot comment on the waspy issues you have. But, I think your right.

A private partner is not so bad if you allow the expertise to have a contract - limited and also a backup. Some royalties never hurt. Union in an LVEC is difficult in this city. For one they have no experience with such venues and strikes and union 19th century thinking is still alive and well. I appreciate unions but not this centuries.

The facility is also layed out just for hockey / and conference area are 3 rooms 500 sqft each. Maybe enough for a few hundred people.

Most facilities in Kingston can only hold maybe tops / and somewhat cramped atmosphere tops - 400. Any more they have to breakup the locations to different areas, rooms etc. Trade Shows to keep all attendees on equal playing field (because they pay the same cost per sqft of space) should be in one preferred area / 2 tops for traffic flow - ease of visiting all booths etc. Not to mention booths take up alot more space than people -
10' x 10' - to 20' x 40' on average per booth. We can maybe do 70 tops at the Memorial Centre.

Parking well sure it is always an issue. But, have you ever been to the Corel Centre? Is terrible. In the suburbs, so you must drive, the parking lots is massive, then you have to find your car afterwards. It took me 45 minutes to just get into the place / 45 out. Imagine in the winter. LVECs must be downtown. Parking - I think alot of people will walk , ride bikes, buses in Kingston. The suburbians will drive but there are spots close enough. Kingston Downtown is certainly not a big city situation.

Fines etc. well if they *the city) was smart they would increase the parking charges in the City not the fines. Personally I think the cost of parking here is *****! Compared to a larger city.

Doctors, housing, sewers etc. - all cities have this problem. Except really for housing - Kingston even now - is ***** compared to any other city I know except for maybe Montreal or say Halifax? I bought my plavce in 98 - for 88,000. Its not fancy - I worked on it - its a nice 2 story 130 year house with 2 baths, deck, porch and on a park. Man you cannot beat that.

Sewage - water treatment plants all that stuff is being fixed. There is the new ravensview facility, the storage tanks now, and a new pipe across the river. I think we are doing well. Do you really think that a smaller city cannot get things done faster than a big city like T.O? I think we are well ahead - and the quality of life here (the Toronto folks) are diing to escape the rat race there!

But, I truly think Kingston on the job front is traditionally a government, union town. Its hard to promote business here / because they are scared of the union presents. And these days with competition world wide - they have a point. But, Startecks are not good. They can unplug in a week and be gone! Look at Bell.

What do you do by the way? Are you looking for work - or better/more meaningful work? Maybe I can help. I have been through the Kingston job situation.

[SLN]

we are getting somewhere.

I only disagree with you on two fine points and one isn't all that relevant to the LVEC debate.

I disagree that parking isn't a problem - your prediction that people will walk or bike won't materialize if the events are indeed (as planned) in the winter months.

Secondly, Kingston housing prices have skyrocketed. I too bought a little fixer-upper in a good part of town in 1999 for $80,000. That same house would easily fetch double that today. you'll just have to trust me, I am very, very up to date on teh Kingston real estate scene.) My husband's boss looked to move here from Ottawa - he would get a transfer and he thought he would make a nice profit from selling his place in Ottawa when he came here. He looked for months but concluded that he could not trade his home in Ottawa for anything as nice and less expensive here. Prices are much, much lower in Belleville, Cornwall, Trenton, Brockville - and these cities are comparable to Kingston in many ways.

as to what I do - I'll send you a private message.

[Patti Arnold]

:eek: :eek: If you saw the local news tonight, first they showed Harvey’s great disappointment on the 4.8 million being ONLY for roads and bridges. BUT THEN they showed our MPP saying that the Municipality COULD redirect some of those funds to the “sports and entertainment” facility. It is NOT a sports facility. Bittu George recently emailed me the message below:

-----Original Message-----
From: George, Bittu [mailto:bgeorge@cityofkingston.ca]
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 5:39 PM
To: Patti Arnold
Subject: RE: Glad to read you could be the hero!

Hi Ms. Arnold,

If the $8 million doesn’t come through, then the LVEC would be finished. I disagree that the multiplex could be an LVEC; one is meant to be a recreational facility, the other is meant to be an entertainment facility.

Regards,

Bittu

Bittu George, Deputy Mayor
Councillor, Collins-Bayridge

City of Kingston
344 Briarwood Drive
Kingston, ON K7M 8V1
Tel: (613) 634-6641
Fax: (613) 546-5232
bgeorge@cityofkingston.ca (bgeorge@cityofkingston.ca)
www.cityofkingston.ca (http://www.cityofkingston.ca/)

With the new Health Promotion Legislation coming in, we need to email jgerretsen.mpp.co@liberal.ola.org (jgerretsen.mpp.co@liberal.ola.org)
And let him know that the 4.8 million for roads and bridges needs to be spent there. IF a portion CAN be used for “sports” then direct it to sports, our aging arenas, the Memorial Centre, the MPLEX (with a pool) and not entertainment!

OR IF a portion can be directed to infrastructure (lots of pipes under those roads) then use it that way.

DON’T spend it on the LVEC!! :eek:

[Exhibitionist]

Yes - I "read" that our MPP did little for our community.

5 million is NOTHING for infastructure.

Yes - put it to a few "pipes" / roads downtown. NOT into the suburbs.

Infact; out of the 2-3 billion promised for infastructure by the Ontario Government - Toronto gets most of it for a subway!

Great! - Toronto gets (all the money) for community needs - we get crumbs and your delighted?????

I also agree - that the Multiplex could NEVER be nor should be an LVEC.

How you think this is a good idea is beyond me. It is somewhat obvious your knowledge on the LVEC or Multiplex facilities/ projects is very limited.