Taxation Fears - cloud the LVEC debate!

[Exhibitionist]

I understand you maybe interested / or fasinated with anything to do with taxation in our fair City. I am currently embarking on a sage to find out the "history" of taxation in KIngston. In particular - pre ammagamation information.

Since moving to Kingston in 1998 - our residential taxation levels have increased on average @ 5% per year. So, approx. a 40% increase. Not to say other Cities have had the same increases, but to find out (why) - in such a small period of time. And to hopefully show the reasons behind the increases (that are double the annual inflation rate.)

One of the other reasons I am interested to find out the "history" of our taxation numbers - is to facilitate education and relavent information to the general public to inform - so we can deal with issues, public opinion etc. - behind the current "revolt mentallity" with regards to current mind sets on issues such as: infastructure, City services and the alarmist mentallity regarding the LVEC. i.e the public will be on the "hook" and our taxes will increase "again" if we move forward with the LVEC. (KCAL -one of their fear tatics).

But, infact I believe the LVEC is mutually exclusive of the "taxation frustration" - and is being used as a knee jerk reaction (from the naysayers) to spread fear in the public - especially people on fixed incomes etc. i.e could loose their homes (because of the LVEC).

This type of thinking is short sighted (as ones memory tends to be) on the "history" of circumstances such as
taxation and the true reasons behind increases or lack there of. - as an example.

I would be interested on any input people would have on the "history" / examples surrounding councils decisions to hold / raise taxes / increase spending / sink holes and alike.

P.S - I am also still waiting on the City to provide me with the tax rates (bylaws) for the latter years.

[Emerald]

I hope that you will be able to display your conclusions in a simple understandable form. This is a very clouded issue and one that alll municipalities are experiencing. I have long felt that the cost of home ownership is underestimated and the servicing of which will, (and should),become greater as the services we require become more expensive.
As an example - recycling - a demanded and good service probably does not pay for itself. I do not envy you trying to come to grips with the 'cost' of provincial downloading - if indeed there IS a cost. Change there certainly was but no one can agree on what is any was the cost.

[Exhibitionist]

In fact; the City did send me the tax/mill rates from 1985 - to 2004.

From a quick scan of the rates it seems - (before / after amalgamation) that:

The late 80's - there were "significant tax increase" for the City of Kingston
ranging from 5-8%.

The early 90's show a trend - of decreasing rates from 4- 1.5%

The late 90's show a trend - of increase tax rates - 4-6%

And 2000-06 - the trend seems to be steady at about 5%

And just a general note: On the "big picture" - Canadians (debt load) i.e owed on credit cards, lines of credit etc. in 1984 was 6 billion - in 2005 it has ballooned to 108 billion.

That being said: "the public" also feel Governments (federal, provincial, municipal) are mishandling "their tax monies".

But, infact; we as citizens misuse our own monies much more and without any checks and balances as the Gov't has in place. There are ofcourse exceptions. But, the Gov't generally has had and will likely continue to have balance budgets for the forseeable future. And they also have "saved" billions when "things do go bad". Do you really think most Canadians can say that?

Don't blame Gov't for assuring theres money in the bank with interest - to pay for long term public services. Take a look at yourself and your own poor financial use of funds.

Although as a footnote: persons on fixed incomes, disabled or economically marginalised
should have some tax rebates/indexed with regards to "residential" tax increases based on reassessment of property.

That being said; here are the general circumstances - tax increase/ decreases: (Kingston)

1) Recession in the early 90's - businesses and residential property became a less opportunity for taxation - (because of business going out of business) - and residential employees left/ incomes deflated, (politically - councils were resistant to increase taxes) - because of remaining businesses struggling, and residential citizens able to both vote with their feet and with their ballets.

2) Harris Government - had a hand in the mix - cutting services and downloading social services, including administration of (i.e. welfare, ODSP etc.), New Municipal services - such as recycling, handicap accessibility public buildings etc. - required very large capital expenditures that need to be spread over 20 years (not 2-3). Along with huge increases in insurance premiums, lawsuits from contaminated dumps, and general inflation increase in running, buying City equipment, fuel and maintenance services - increasing employee
union labour costs. Cost of amalgamation. Ongoing computer system upgrades...

Walkerton (water treatment plants) - laws also added to our municipal rates - i.e. Ravens view costs are $ 125,000,000 (just to build it let alone run it for 30 years) for a population of 100,000 it takes a large sum to cover even with Gov't grants of 25 million.

The dump at Belle Park - containment/legal fees
Sewer treatment/overflow upgrading facility
Ongoing renovations, the Memorial Center, City Hall Dome,
City own properties -that have been ignored for decades.
Reassessment of personal / rental property

But the other main continuing rate hikes for the foreseeable future:

Urban Sprawl - - that requires millions upon millions to supply sewer, hydro and social services in the "rural" areas - have probably cost us more in tax increases (recently) than if we planned more centrally.

City Central sewer, hydro and road infrastructure is obviously the worst in the city. This is because it has been left to maintenance (quick fixes) while the suburbs grown and has the latest and newest infrastructure budgets. But, because of amalgamation everyone pays for it. Before City Central did not.

So, in conclusion - there is never (1) one reason for issues. i.e. tax issues.

It is a combination of economic viability, i.e. growth of businesses to help with the share of the tax base. Residential reassessment in the late 90's, large infrastructure projects, downloading of services from provincial/federal governments (with less support), Urban residential planning encouraging resources to go to newer developments/not old, liabilities from the past- such as dump sites, water treatment pipes, no efficiency plans - such as transportation, strategic planning or municipal service delivery. And no headway with regards to employee union labour/pension contracts in terms of redundancy work/pay.

And the early 90's when taxes were held "low" - at a time when all of the latter issues were coming to bear on the City of Kingston - within the next 4-8 years. (2 councils)

In other words - we had "no long term planning/thinking in place" and no expertise/leadership - that would risk changing the status quo in areas of:

Efficient delivery of services, by the City, Union reps
Past liabilities issues, on City owned property
No overall plans on how to best deliver / execute a budget of $250,000,000
KEDCO's (wait for the phone to ring) - style of doing business
Kingston’s - "lazy" dependence - on Government Institutions - steady employment
(P.S - these institutions - do not pay property taxes)
As a City - we cannot have a significant debt ratio - rating. (C-)
- rate impacts ability to borrow / borrowing rate levels.

So, when the 90's arrived with the latter "new liability/bad debt rating" - along with the unexpected Government downsizing/privatization ..

Along with - private companies (large ones) Norcom, Bombardier, Alcan
- where either shutting down, leaving Kingston, or significantly downsizing....

We got caught with our pants down and now we pay! And now - get our "house" in order.

And as a City not "historically" use to moving to quickly / or to change...

Especially on several fronts at the same time!

a) To reduce expenditures (Labour/capital) - develop/attract businesses here in Kingston.
b) (increase property tax base) - to pay for our negative infrastructure, City social, recreational services and "lifestyle" levels we expected in the 50-60-70-'s.
c) And to pay for "past liabilities" and the ongoing new ones that will - arise.

Is is frankly a big undertaking for Kingston, ON!

Why do you not think P3 - Public Private Partnerships are so "popular" now?

We cannot afford to build (and) run public projects (as we did in the traditional model)

With "todays capital costs" - and City union labour rates. (we will always go into debt)

Lastly; look at our own personal finances - cost of living - debt we carry - lifestyle choices - consumerism - etc.

And can you tell me SINCERELY- that the taxes (all of us pay) are not mostly going to worthwhile needed services in our community! Rather than what "we" spend the rest of our disposable income on?

[Emerald]

I'm not sure what your point is here. Taxes have risen. Mistakes have been made. Could you make your suggestions for the future more clear please?

[Exhibitionist]

Frankly; I do not know how much more clear I could be. (with examples)

Tax levels have "varied" over the past twenty years. (with inflation!)

And it is in relation to life-style choice! (We want services right?)

And - yes owning a home you need to be smart about purchasing, financing / maintenance / etc.

(Which I spoke to - and most of us are bad with their finances)

Not the Government - they are much better at it. So, do not blame them!

Taxes have "varied" (in Kingston) because:

1990 Recession, Ravens View Water Treatment (Walkerton), Paying for past irresponsible actions (Belle Park Dump), Debt load (living beyond our collective means, poor urban planning (urban sprawl) Decentralised administration..etc.

Assumption/perception - that the "misuse" of Government funds - are to blame for higher taxaton - rather than maybe considering the big picture, and our personal dept handling...

The publics knee jerk reactions on taxes is frankly coming from ignorance.

Look at Europe - the taxes there..and cost of living - you have no idea!

Like anything - it costs to provide services - simple as that.

Would you work for free? Materials costs such as oil, wood, steel & insurance - all contribute to the higher cost of living.

Its not the 1950's (that anything goes ..and the cost of wood, fuel were expendable / *****)...that world is gone!

The days of throwing our garbage anywhere is gone, the days of drunk 14 - 65 year olds driving snowmobiles without licences and training are gone, the days of bourgeois American "attutude" - throw away attitude is also almost - (thank god gone)

Lastly; the LVEC - will cause/or contribute to "possible" higher taxes.

The LVEC is mutually exclusive - it has nothing to do with higher taxes - higher taxes have everything to to with the cost of delivery services - such as education, health and all the things "the boomers" demand - and are use to from their previous generation.

The problem is (can we afford these services) Canadian really is not really a rich country - in fact - it is a very small country - 1% of total GDP of the world. Thats nothing!

Again its "perception" - and ignorance not facts.

The "main point" - we pay taxes to provide "Universal Social Services".

If you do not want these services such as education, health , OHIP etc.

Don't come running to me for help - when you suddenly need it.

How much clearer can I be?

Any intelligent comments for me?

P.S - Your "clouded" comments: (Change there certainly was but no one can agree on what is any was the cost.) ??????

I do not agree with the latter comments: are correct or even understandable.

In fact; as I have stated in both the research and observations...the reasons behind our "perception" re: Taxes.

[Valley]

One of the greatest difficulties with the LVEC is that there seems to be no clearly understandable public need or desire for it. It is more readily apparent that a major refurbishment of the Memorial Centre, along with that of some of our neighbourhood community arenas, could be accomplished at far less capital cost than that proposed for both the 'LVEC' and the 'Multiplex'. More municipal capital funds would then be available to repair or build new facilities: pools, roads, parks, libraries, waterfront improvements, etc.

[Exhibitionist]

It is understandable - if there was no business plan, no public meeting and no information through the local papers with regards to the "need for an LVEC".

But, frankly there has been plenty of infrmation if one would look/read and be open minded about the reasons.

Memorial Centre - is not capable even with renovations to be able to be a multipurpose facility that caould allow the capacity for events, hockey , trad shows etc - for it to be economically viable for the next 30 years.

It is also a buried site " as indicated i the business plan". That meaning - it is not as accessable to the general public, (handicap, people without cars, persons from out of town - to find the facility etc.) including - i.e bus services, parking, food amenities, local business spinoffs, hotels, banks etc.

The Multiplex - is mutually exclusive - it has nothing to do with the LVEC.

That is a different forum.

[Lydia]

*************
The reason we complain about taxes is that GOVERNMENTS HAVE PAID THEIR EXECUTIVES FAR RICHER WAGES AND GAVE AWAY FREE GIFTS AND PENSIONS THEN ANY CITIZEN IN THIS COUNTRY. GOVERNMENTS MISMANAGED BUDGETS AND LIED ABOUT THEM AS WELL. Governments paid their executives these gifts like Corporations did to their executives.

PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

EXAMPLE: Hydro One's excutive who they FIRED a settlemant even thought she only worked for them for 6 months.

I BLAME GOVERNMENTS AND DESPITE THAT THE CANADIAN PEOPLE ARE FAR BETTER OF THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. I know you will never agree with me so don't even try.

I ONLY AGREE WITH YOU ON ONE THING: We should be mindful and hold governments accountable.

However I want you to enjoy the following joke:

A college student at a recent Carolina football game challenged a senior citizen sitting next to him, saying it was impossible for their generation to understand him.

"You grew up in a different world," the student said .... loud enough for the whole crowd to hear. "Today we have television, jet planes, space travel, man has walked on the Moon, our spaceships have visited Mars, we even have nuclear energy, electric and hydrogen cars, computers with light-speed processing, and, uh "

Taking advantage of a pause in the student's litany, the geezer said, "You're right. We didn't have those things when we were young; so we
invented them, you little ****! Now what the hell are you doing for the next generation??"

I love senior citizens!

[Exhibitionist]

See above for remarks pleaase...

[Exhibitionist]

Beyond - that the discussion should directly relate to the LVEC - and that taxes have nothing to do with the "project". I actually did the homework -and generally spoke to Kingston's "historical stats" and general economic atmosphere of the time about taxation rates etc.- along with debunking popular assumptions. Would you not agree we pay taxes to pay for social services? And that of the collective -elect representitives to reflect our social, cultural & economic beliefs?

Hydro One (was born out of your generation) and has destroyed and indebted Ontario (in particular) collective eco systems, creating "huge deficits" since its inception. (With a 20 billion dollar debt / and more to come)

Because; Canadians wanted *****, quick energy solutions of the day.

Canadians also do not want to pay for the actual cost of usage ( 4 cents/per KW hour) It actual cost 8 cents. 100% more - thus the debt.

At the same time waste more energy per capita than any other human on the planet!

Again - an example of poor financial, planning and nieve ignorance.

Employee contracts are binding contracts. (by law)

And I certainly would want a contract if I was heading up a billion dollar enterprise to! It would be unbusiness like to not have a binding contract.

If it does not work out because of internal politic's or technical expertise - so be it. It happens every day (in the real world).

You would like to have broken the contract? - and been sued instead?

The rule of law is there for all of us not just executives or baseball players. Your example is rather simple.

The whole idea of several thousands/or a million or two lost - does not even compared to the several billion dollar losses - That the general public "voted" - to continue Governments - associated with Hydro One, Bombardier and alike.

You voted the Liberals/ Conservatives in - don't blame them - for continuing your wishes!

To say (your generation) invented and accomplished what you "suggest" is not accurate. Infact the inventions (and the "ideas" and testing) - came mainly from German & Japanese, British Engineers. (from WW2)

Not Canadians!

Canadians compared to all other "Western" nations spend the least on R&D. (CD Howie Institute stats) In fact; Canada could never AFFORD to be even close to most of them. And our inventive, engineering and industrial history is rather poor in comparision.

We infact are still looked upon as the country - of trees and rocks. Our largest exports are NOT finished goods.

We do not make (value added things) i.e machines, tools, cars or much other than a few CANDU reactors (which are the WORST reactors) in the WORLD. - that are substitised. Such as Bombardier - which is a poor "politically entrenched" company.

Canada has always / and still does: sells oil, minerals and wood and wheat. We are a commodity based country period. Some IT, some specialty items.

The other G& countries (Americans, Japanenese, Germans, and soon China G9) Really make "things" - then re-sell it back to us with huge value added profits! Thats the reality!

The Germans in fact have the best social system: 2 year maternity leave - with a garrantee of your equivalent job when you return. 5-6 week vacation time (on average). Great pensions ontop of Rehabilitation / "spas" for elder/maternity care. The best medical / child care / educational institutions / transportation / and infastructure (such as roads) in the world.

And if you are so proud of (your generations) inventions - I would have not had them - (for many social/ecological reasons) if I had the choice betwwen starting a World War or not.

In fact Canada is dead 7th in the G7 (in relation of wealth per capita). I would also suggest our indigenous Canadians, 1 million poor children, and 500 billion dollar debt is nothing to boast about.

If (your generaltion) had maybe put "energy" towards some of these issues; I could agree Canada is "one of the best" places to live (in the past 50 years for most of us - not just the few).


Southern France would be nice though in the winter - don't you think?[/quote]

[Lydia]

I am proud to say I AM CANADIAN.:D :D :D :D Just like the beer commercial says. I AM PROUD of being ""MY GENERATION" lol lol

For someone who is as intellegent as you, I am surprised that you would allow yourself to even BE IN THIS COUNTRY. After all, Why are you here when you detest the Canadian way of live, politics, economics, life style, etc.

Surely, you are wayyyyyyyyyyyyy to fine to be here upon us lowly Cannooks?????

It is great however, to read your thoughts on this country and learn about your disrespect and distain for Canada. After all what do we have to offer you????

Now that You have shown US CANADIANS AND OLD PEOPLE the way. Thank you and proves to me the The Canadians are the greatest people on earth and we are a PROUD, PROSPEROUS COUNTRY, WE ARE A CARING SOCIETY.

Until i learned from you, your ideas, I too was not happy with my community and government. Now I am DELIGHTED ABOUT BEING CANADIAN AND STILL NOT HAPPY WITH THE CRAP GOVERNMENTS gave us.

So thank you for sharing

[Exhibitionist]

I think you have a waspy English way of ...thinking.

And obviously not very travelled. Because if you had you would likely know what I am saying is true. It is not that I am "being a righteous know it all".

I frankly maybe "more Canadian" than most. I was born here, still tent camp, canoe,
hike, (in very remote/ no hydro locations) I play hockey.. and have travelled this country more than most. And not by hotel and via airplanes.

I am just offering some basic truths about Canada other than the silver lining you and others seem to only immortalize. (or wish to only remember)

I find it simple - and nieve.

I am certain - I do not wish to live in Guatamula (sp).....but I frankly do not care what age one is or if they are Queens professors, Minister, Accountants or Garbage collectors (as in countries) there are bad people and good characters in all things.:D

Like you.

But, again this forum is about the LVEC and tax threat not personalities and pride.

[Lydia]

Watch it ************* :D I am starting to like you . lol lol

Not Gemini just the old crab Cancer lmao

Thinking??? Hell no, I try not to think gets in the way alot. By the way do tell what is a ""waspy English"" It is the same as Pig Latin??

You are correct about me not being a globe trodder. I love Canada way to much for that crap. Actually Traveled thoughout all the Eastern and Central States and Every Province in Canada. Getting too old for traveling. lol lol

Okay explains why you don't like Canadians, you are one. lol lol. So am I.
NOoooooooooooo you really tent camp, canoe, hike, (in very remote/ no hydro locations) I play hockey.. and have travelled this country more than most. And not by hotel and via airplanes. You sound more like me than the world traveler that you now know that I am not. Soooooooooooooo you are only a Canook Traveler like the majority of us.

My family has traveled the Globe and therefore I only have their word about what happens in other countries, like Russia, Amsterdam, France, Egypt, Armania, Cuba, Norway, Britian, South Africa and Bogata in Columbia and Peru. However, I don't travel the globe

Actually i prefer silver over Gold, best suited to my complexion. So if i have a silver lining i lost it. Do you know where I can find it again?

You are right I am simple and nieve in my ways. However that is a choice I made a long time ago. The reason being is that I do not plan on being the richest woman in the graveyard and i choose to live simply. One of the reasons i don't get to throw things away.

What one minute, Why wouldn't you like to live in Guatamula?? From what you are saying about Canada it might be a better place????

You do not care what age one is or if they are Queens professors, Minister, Accountants or Garbage collectors (as in countries) there are bad people and good characters in all things. So you can have my motto in life. ""Everyone is important to us because each of us has skills, talents, and professions that we all need. To me the Janitor of a building is just as important to a business as is the President of a company. After all who would deal with a President who has a dirty building where people get sick just for the mold and dirt? I personally believe we all are valuable people and what ever we choose to do is great as long as we have PRIDE in ourselves.

Okay so much for chatting. I firmly believe that this City NEEDS LVEC AND MULTIPLEX AND ALL OF THE OTHER PROJECTS. What people are truly fighting over is waste of funds just because some politicians choose not to listen. The question is very basic. You have money in your pocket and you can choose for your family one of the following: Entertainment Centre or Cleaner Water, Streets to travel on, Cleaner Sewers, and a host of other things. Which one of these things would you choose first when you don't have all the information in front of you. That my friend is truly the reason people are all upset.

Now add to this equation the following: I am in charge but I won't tell you everything and you elected me. Are you still willing to let me have my way with your money??? PLlllllllllllllease tell me yes so that I can take your money. lol lol

[Exhibitionist]

Good day... :)

I sent Mayor Rosen an email. And he kindly responded.

I spoke to the "communication issue" regarding the 7 super projects in the City.

I spoke to the fact that there "seems" to be a general feeling - that there is not enough communication/info - on the realities, challenges etc. the LVEC project may bring.

I spoke to the little things: such as City web site that had not been updated in months. I spoke to the need for Mr. Gedge to be more on the frontlines of this project - as in the paper, "go to person etc." to show some transparencey to groups such as KCAL and the public.

But, I also understand they do not wish to do/say anything (extra) - because there is a"process" for the RFQ, drawings, design and planning for the North Block site.

He responded. (below)

Hello,
>
> The following message is from Mayor Rosen:
>
> "Thank you for your e-mail.
>
> The City has a Communications team within our Strategic Planning and
> Sustainability Department. Mr. Paul MacLatchy is the Director and Ms.
> Cynthia Beach, is the Commissioner responsible for overseeing city-wide
> communications.
>
> Accordingly, if you have any suggestions in this regard, please feel
> free to be in touch with either Mr. MacLatchy or Ms. Beach directly.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Harvey Rosen, Mayor"

[Lydia]

Excellent job, More people need to write to Council and the Mayor.

The Mayor is correct there is a process involved and the public will NOT be told EVERYTHING due to the fact that there is such a thing as Tendering.

Tender is the process where companies tell tell the City exactly how much they will charge for a project. Due to the fact that wages, building materials, just-in-time measures for getting materials, availabilty of Labour, differ from one developer to another, companies do not want to disclose to their competiter what they will charge for projects.

It is only when one developers wins the deal that this information becomes available will we truly know the costs of the LVEC or any other project.

Just to let you know, Cynthia Beach seems to be an excellent City Manager. She has allowed her assistant Melanie to keep the public informed on the Multiplex issue. How do I know, I just asked and received the e-mails regarding tonight's meeting at 6:30 p.m. at Portsmouth.

Ms Beach recently joined the City and I feel that the public will be in good hands. Only time will tell but that is my original feeling.

[Don Anderson]

If anyone wants me to write Justice John Gomery and ask him what he’s doing in 2009, I will. By then, those lenders and businesses attached to LVEC should be doing quite well while its debt underwritten by unsophisticated tax paying home owners is covered for as long as Kingston maintains liquidity. Is this possible or is this certain. Well, at least it appears to be plausible. But just because an idea is plausible, does that make it sensible? I’ll ask the 73 year old living down the street. He’ll know.

I believe our well tenured still rockin’ Woodstock Generation has decided to put our now discouraged and sometimes pregnant Downsized Generation into deep and useless debt. They are doing it because they can. After he left office Bill Clinton asked why he carried on with Monica and he answered “because I could”. The danger is that we are caught in the headlights of elected leaders and friends now attaching the entrepreneurial uncertainties of profit and loss to the almost boundless borrowing and repaying power of tax payers. Those who don’t want to pay back the money being borrowed in their name can protest by holding back land taxes and see what happens next. If your name is on a deed here in Kingston then you have already cosigned to cover costs and losses for any business you‘re put you into. So let’s take a look at the business you are buying and try and figure out what you already cosigned for.

Business is about profit and loss. It is about risk taking, as it should be. Traditionally when business goes well, risk takers go home with all the profits and when it doesn’t they suffer all the losses and move on to the next risk. Not anymore! Those who gave up on inventing perpetual motion machines now fantasize about how to realize profits while wishing debt out into the corn field. Impossible! you say. Projects like LVEC shift the project’s responsibility for debt onto the shoulders of tax payers and profits in the hands of a few entrepreneurs. Slick! You say. Can you say “goodbye … Sir Isaac Newton” and “hello … Penn & Teller”. Private business is attaching itself to government and indirectly projecting debt obligation through the power of law enforced taxation to others to pay those losses incurred in their name. Not bad. Some would pay a million for such access. Surely you must have wondered by now, why they didn’t borrow the money and build it themselves.

How did this happen? If we unsophisticated tax payers were told a clothing factory is going up on Counter Street and we are going to underwrite its start-up debt and future losses, we might at least be curious. But there is something dreamy about a nice place for nice folks to enjoy nice entertainment that makes an otherwise sensible public yearn for the days of Woodstock, only this time with flush toilets. Defibrillate Country Joe and the Fish - we’re almost there. I don’t know who among us own businesses that may profit from LVEC hockey games and concerts but at tax time all of us will be covering any losses.

Maybe Brockville tax payers will find others to borrow, build and pay for an LVEC while they invest in sports teams and surrounding real estate and sell hotdogs and forget about Woodstock. This is business and Woodstock by the way was a throbbing peri-gluteous nightmare fondly remembered mostly by those who weren’t there.

[Exhibitionist]

Don - I must be out of touch with what exactly your trying to say.

Are you speaking to: BIG conspiracy theory, i.e KCAL web site, Mr. Downes and others seem to can't get out of there minds!

Or just bad smoke....Woodstock or not.??? I don't get what you are rambling on about?

To start - I disagree business enterprises are created to just to make profits. (I believe there is always a partnership in creating any enterprise..., with always the 3 main stakeholders. - Local Gov't, employees & suppliers to the enterprise.

If I am reading your various takes on the LVEC - :o

It is understandable you may not get the LVEC - if you did not READ (all) of the LVEC business plan, or attended the various public meetings - (beyond TONS of information through the local papers with regards to the "need for an LVEC". )

So, I really think you need to clarify - what the heck your talking about in terms - of current post? - "not history. (lessons)"

A few Facts:

Memorial Centre - is not capable even with renovations to be able to be a multipurpose facility that could allow the capacity for events, hockey , trade shows etc. - for it to be economically viable for the next 30 years. AS I understand about these things - is because I have 20 years experience (Hands on) with the trade show industry/events etc.

It (Memorial Centre) is also a buried site - as indicated in the business plan.

That means - it is not as accessable to the general public, i.e handicap, people without cars, persons from out of town etc. Allowing anyone to find, attend the facility etc.) i.e bus services, parking, food amenities, local business spinoffs, hotels, banks etc.

The Multiplex - is mutually exclusive - it has nothing to do with the LVEC.

And by the way - We Canadians - underwrite "Bombardier" for billions" (Thats with a "B") for a private company - that I have worked for - that frankly - does NOT deserve or need underwriting of loans (at preferred bank rates) - for the soul purpose of a political gain - and support for "higher paying" jobs for Quebec. Bombardier also sold off their most profitable division - Snowmobiles. Planes and trains are ok - for Europe - but they do little for Canadian interests.

Again; I also come from a background of "experience" with the latter issues...

You are trying to say/opinionate on something you may know little about? But. please clarify/justify (in less wordy) what the heck your talking about - in a simpler forum.

....so we can try to give your our critical opinion.

Thank you.







(http://www.kingstonelectors.ca/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4420)

[beehummingbird]

Look at the prisons in our area. Look at the OHIP building. These required a LOT of government money from which we have all benefited. As I look around to see what in Kingston - besides the people and the ambience - that gives me pleasure it would be the Conservation Authority lands and the waterfront walks etc. etc. etc.all paid for out of our pockets. I don't disapprove of taxpayers paying for an LVEC but I do want it done in the best possible manner. In the rush to approval I wonder if the design elements are being overlooked. Design in this case would include the relationship of the LVEC to the surrounding area.

Roll on Don but I don't think the majority agrees with you.

[Lydia]

I agree with Don that maybe Brockville, Napanee, Amhersview will do better to grab the Multiplex or the LVEC if Kingston does not grow up and stop the US Versus Them mentality in this city.

I agree with Bee the best thing about Kingston is the Shore Line and the Conservation Authority's Lands. The Prisons, the Hospitals, the Fort, are all added attractions and industial businesses. However, Now is the time to grow and do things correctly.

[macphail]

Look at the prisons in our area.

Are the prisons a financial plus to Kingston or a big minus?

On one hand, there are the added jobs paid from with money from outside the city.

On the other hand, their is the added policing, health and social costs, not to mention lost property tax revenues.

I don't know what the answer is to my question; however, it would be interesting to find out.

Cheers, Derek

[Lydia]

Hi Derek,
You are correct and so is Bee. That is why I always say we must examine both the Good and Bad issues associated with any project.

One man's richest is another man's burdon. It all depends on where you sit. That is why I am always saying it isn't Us versus Them.

What great companies do is brain storming on issues before they act. Now if the city would only do this before proceeding with projects they might find that the public can support just about anything that is presented.

Lets make a list of the advantages and disadvantages and try to minimize the results of the disadvantages.

[beehummingbird]

It is totally irrelevant to discuss whether the prisons are a plus or a minus. They are here and we must do all we can to make that a positive. It is slowly becoming apparent that there ARE problems associated with the prisons, but we have no ability to document this nor do we have the ability to document the positive benefits from the employment generated here.

[Lydia]

That is the problem with projects. Documentation isn't done. I call it business plans. I personally don't know what benefits or liabilities are assocaited with what we have already. I doubt that anyone else does.

[macphail]

It is totally irrelevant to discuss whether the prisons are a plus or a minus.

Irrelevant? Sorry, but it is you who brought them up.

Cheers, Derek

[Exhibitionist]

I would like to know (where/whom) our "opinions" are drawn from in this forum on the (LVEC / Taxation)

- in terms of ones age, employed, self, retired, student etc. (demographic)

Regarding this discussion/plateform regarding the LVEC - only.

With two simple questions: (with short answers please...)


Why - you think we NEED an LVEC. (3 points only)

Why - you think we DO NOT need an LVEC. (3 points only)

What age demographic you belong to. i.e (20- 30, 30-40, 50-60, 60-80)


And lastly - Why do you NOW live here in Kingston? & How long?
- (Recently retired here?, work here?, school here?..other?)

Thank you.

[Lydia]

Let me inform you first of all that my age is none of your business. Nor is it anyone elses business. Nor is anyone else's age, reason for living in Kingston, etc any of your business.

Having said that your survey asks 3 reason for having or not having the LVEC

Having LVEC
1: Bring in Tourists to encourage them to want to live in a vibrant place to live
2: Bring Kingston into the 21 century where businesses would want to establish themselves
3: Entertainment is a value that people need and want. It helps us forget our troubles and gives us a way to de-stress ourselves

Not Having LVEC
1: Tax dollar could be used for Necessities instead of Entertainment
2: Kingston Needs to improve itself and become a more friendly place to live and do business
3: 145,000 people in this city did not have a chance to vote on whether they want the LVEC

Sorry I have one more reason
4: People can think of at least several other services that this city needs instead of spending money on Entertainment first.

[macphail]

I would like to know (where/whom) our "opinions" are drawn from in this forum on the (LVEC / Taxation)

- in terms of ones age, employed, self, retired, student etc. (demographic)

What age demographic you belong to. i.e (20- 30, 30-40, 50-60, 60-80)


And lastly - Why do you NOW live here in Kingston? & How long?
- (Recently retired here?, work here?, school here?..other?)

Thank you.

Relevance? I think it attrocious to ask such questions if they are meant to some how qualify the opinions given.

I would hope that nobody on in this forum answers them and would and I would ask that you kindly remove them in case somebody thinks it appropriate to respond.

Sincerely, Derek

[Lydia]

:rolleyes: :D :rolleyes: :D :D

I have a question.

What does attrocious mean?? Somehow i think it isn't nice:D :D :D

Thanks Derek, I fully agree
I don't mind tell why we need or don't need the LVEC. The answers to the other questions IS nobody's business and isn't revelent one bit.

[Exhibitionist]

The idea of any type of census - should have elements/factors of i.e "demographics" of the audience - you are surveying. (statistics)

Demographic meaning: study of population, age, deaths, births etc.

It allows for a sense of the "audience participating" in the survey - i.e the number of participants, particpating demographic: 20 - 30 year olds 50-60 year olds, economic status etc.

That being said -

I am sensitive to persons unwilling to fully speak to the requirements. That is why the questions: are "ranges" not a specific - age number.

And the "backgrounds" of the participants - in terms of status:

-economic status/ life style preferences in Kingston. (Is important to allow for a "demographic" of the "economic group".) Poor, rich, other...e.g .that may help form their opinion.

But, of course if you do not wish to give your age "range" / economic status that is your choice.

It just makes it more difficult to identify - "groups" by generation/economic status/Kingston demographics/lifestyle etc. and the responses they contribute/believe.

Why people feel that the need to hide their "range of age", their reasons for living here, and if they are retired or not - does not seem to me that pretentous. My gosh - you give (more specific details info) out to Sears etc!

Be that as it may - your opinions are appreciated. (And if you don't wish to offer a range - then don't!)

[Lydia]

It just makes it more difficult to identify - "groups" by generation/economic status/Kingston demographics/lifestyle etc. and the responses they contribute/believe.

Why people feel that the need to hide their "range of age", their reasons for living here, and if they are retired or not - does not seem to me that pretentous. My gosh - you give (more specific details info) out to Sears etc!



The information above is a way of pigeon-toeing people. It is a way of labeling people. That is why i find it offensive. Had i applied for a position with you in your company, or applying for a career choice, then the question might be revelant. As for Sears, if they require the information then they can always ask the Credit Union, otherwise it would tell them the same thing i told you. "None of your business!". Trust me I am delighted with my age.

This site is mean to get people's opinions. (Your and Mine and others). When it comes to age, I have a question to ask you. If I was 18 or younger or if i was 81 or older does that mean I should not be entitled to an opinion? What if you were between those ages? (Does that mean your opinion counts more than anyone elses?

I have found people who are 12 years old and younger who are more mature than people who are over 30. I have found people who are 30 and older that have more knowledge than people who are older than 81 etc. It does not matter how old people are when expressing an opinion.

Keep in mind that the opinion people give on here is according to their life's experiences. Trust me when I knew better I did better. For that reason i believe very strongly for the rights of people to disagree with me on here. Heck I will even ADMIT when I was incorrect.

:D :D My motto" "I AM NEVER WRONG, I MAYBE INCORRECT BUT NEVER WRONG."

[macphail]

Why people feel that the need to hide their "range of age", their reasons for living here, and if they are retired or not - does not seem to me that pretentous. My gosh - you give (more specific details info) out to Sears etc!

I don't see you starting off a share-all forum with your stats. :rolleyes:

Cheers, Derek

[Exhibitionist]

Frankly - I believe you are all wrong.

Age is very important to know in a demographic survey.

1) it is important to know what "cross section" of participants are involved in the survey / offering opinions - to the 2 questions / 6 points. ( to know a broad / narrow section )

2) - different ages have "generally speaking" different perspectives / usages of public and private facilities. i.e new young mothers would use daycare more often then a retired woman. (although some days they wish they could sent their retired husbands there.)

3) Economics - Yes - infact younger persons tend to have less "disposable income" than persons in there 50's at their peek income levels. (i.e use of buses, recreational uses)

4) Why and what you do here in Kingston in "terms of qualities of life" do tell us - the recreational needs of the community and the usage levels of public services, such as transportation needs, walkways, conservation areas, recreational centres, LVEC's and alike.

So, in fact it would be helpful to know the latter points.

This is NOT a survey specific "about" you or me.

Believe me your not that important!

[Lydia]

I agree with your statement 'YOU ARE NOT THAT IMPORTANT." However, the other people on here are. So take your arrogant manner and enjoy it because I KNOW I AM THAT IMPORTANT even if you don't know that you are.

However, the last thing i have to say to your survey is this:

I believe i have you confused. You think i give a dang about the survey.

[Exhibitionist]

Lydia - I see you take my one comment out of context and to personally.

Thanks for twisting my words. It's not all about "you".

Again; it is about the reasons why a survey is relevant in this particular forum.

(Since for one who boasts about - "data" / planning and "documentation" "are so lacking in planning/Government". I thought for one you would support such "data" - and the relevance of numbers!

If you still do not wish to (choose to understand) the reasons behind the survey "data" or wish to not participate obviously that is your choice.

The survey is relevant - in this particular forum to get a better sense of the logic and the people behind their statements - regarding the LVEC and associated residential tax concern.

Just a reminder (That this forum is about the latter)

[Lydia]

I am not trying to be difficult or trying to NOT understand what you are saying. I certain am not taking your comments personal at all.

I am trying to be as contraversial as you are when you ask people about their ages, life choices etc.

Your question for having the LVEC or NOT having the LVEC is very revelant. That is why I answered those questions.

I'm sorry I must admit that I did twist your words on "You are not that important". I did that so that you can understand how others will interpret those words.

I don't feel that you are ""WRONG" MAYBE "INCORRECT". when you ask the questions on age, and life styles and education.

Let me assure you that the people on this website are HIGHLY EDUCATED, PROGRESSIVE, INTELLIGENT,SUCCESSFUL, and just plain wonderful people. Okay with the except of me. :D :D :D

Ask the question again: GIVE US REASONS FOR HAVING THE LVEC OR NOT HAVING LVEC. no matter where you are or how old you are.

Again we are not applying for a career choice here only feedback.

[Don Anderson]

*************

I see, you :rolleyes: like using smiley faces. O.K You're right... It may help to be more direct. I don't understand the intricacies of LVEC's business plan. As you suggested I must have been hanging out in smoke filled rooms while others were more wisely positioning themselves to exploit the public. Still, I find it amusing when those who write behind a pseudonyms :cool: comment lavishly regarding the swelling curiosity possessed by those who write openly - the sort of trait one more readily expects of those :eek: who frequent bathhouses.

Of course I am biased. Whenever govenment gets into business with the private sector, it is usually good for those like yourself but not the taxpayer. I am a taxpayer. This is the way I see it T/F ... LVEC is a business proposal, so there will be both income and expenses that include: construction, debt repayment and future liabilities etc. Businesses make or loose money due to the imbalance (one way or the other) between income and expenses. If LVEC is a money making investment, that would make it a good investment and a good idea. If it is a good investment then why don't those business persons who intend to attach their interests (sports team owners or fast food providers and such) to it, invest in it themselves? The answer as far as I can see is because they don't have to. You and I know that those persons who intend to attach their interests to LVEC have the resources including borrowing power to build it themselves. I am simply asking - why should I (who must as a matter of law must pay taxes) be liable for a business asset that would otherwise be a liability to those who stand to make any profit - just like other business people do it? What business wouldn't want potential profits protected from potential losses? Wouldn't it have been simpler to just propose the project to the public as a device to protect private business by forcing taxpayers to underwrite potential losses?

Isn't it reasonable to suspect that there are business interests in our city who have figured out that having friends in a position to direct tax resources is a good idea? Hell, I'd like to have friends in that position. Unfortunately unlike you, I lack the necessary social skills. While those in a position to direct tax resources are using their signature to burden thousands of people they don't know with added debt, people they do know will have a groovy place to do business.

If LVEC looses money why should taxpayers be on the hook for losses even while those who operate businesses attached to LVEC profit? If that is the case then taxpayers are in effect just providing another social program for a different class of clients. If that is the case then why not just say so?

This is as clear as I can state my concerns. What is it that I don't get?:confused:

[Lydia]

Hi Don,
You are total correct on your position. If the truth be known that is exactly what ever taxpayer in this city truly believes about the LVEC and the Multiplex issues. Actually that is the reason the Multiplex isn't getting as much static as the LVEC did. (They are trying to have the Multiplex so fiscialy responsible that the Taxpayer would not be on the hook anymore than they are already maintaining the aged community centre rinks.)

[Exhibitionist]

"Again we are not applying for a career choice here only feedback."

Yikes - you really don't get it. Highly educated (what a B.A in 1960) - thats nothing these days! :D

(P.S you posted your " exact age" in your profile on this web site?)

(I don't get your thought process? Are you forgetting what you do & say?


In any case - I believe Mr. Anderson actually "has" some valid points. :rolleyes:

I guess the "attachment to the LVEC" with local government (financial) involvement - likely (beyond your conspiracy theory) stems from the FACT - THE availability to access - Federal "grants" - that can be applied for only by local government departments. Make sense?

I don't blame local businesses, governments, citizens etc. lobbing or for free grants - or look to apply for free money! It makes sense....its ours.

Its available from tax revenues from large companies/businesses - such as Mobil Canada -Albertian Sands Oil revenues - so why should not tax (grants) be spread around in universal programs, such as health care, infastructure/community Centres etc. Is that not what Canada is all about?

These grants are available free - for ANY local community centre funding.

If we do not get these grants: - as Mayor Rosen says
- the LVEC will likely not be built!!!!!!!!!!!!!(got it yet?)

(Is anyone listening or reading the business plan????????????????:confused: )

Ok - OR- invest in Bombardier then -
(all) -Canadian tax payers are - on the hook for - loans.. from ONE stack- holder - Bombardier.
(And they are an iffy company) - invest in a swamp in florida ..go for it!

In THIS case; there are several local businesses, community groups, fundraising event efforts and downtown Kingston's pledges, and FREE GRANTS - that will be paying for the LVEC.

There maybe (from the half glass empty group) the 10 million or so - that the city of Kingston or the "taxpayers"
MAY or could be (liable for).

But, I have NO problem with my taxes investing in our community. (10 mil divided by 125, 000 people = what Lydia?)

I have also no vested interest in the LVEC. Frankly; it would probably hurt my business.

To want to support the arts, entertainment, small business, business in general, non profits, local government to promote businesses to settle here to help: employment, to help Queens/St. Lawrence grads to stay here, work here, buy homes here etc. And develop local construction, and permanent facility jobs here..etc. - And duh we get a new facility!

I also have no problem supporting a very viable - business plan. (maybe READ it - like I did)

I frankly know it is also best for someone else to run the facility..........LVEC.

I know the last GM of the Memorial Centre - he agrees with the private partner! "The City ran the Memorial Centre to the ground." (looks like it to)

The Agriculturial Society ALSO - owns Memorial Centre Property - why should The City (you and I)
- be "financing" the past 50 (fifty) years with - YOUR - tax dollars? for the Agricultural fair?

- (Is that any better? - Did you know this? ) Its in the business plan!!!!!

The City should stay out of running public facilities !

- they should focus on delivering on local PUC, Municipal Services as efficiently and effectively as possible. (Period - beyond the download from the Province)

It saves us tax increases, i.e UNION demands increase - with less workload - in an era of tighting our belts. Starting to make sense?

Beyond the fact the City has the Memorial Centre - (that it cannot do anything with that is costing them 10's of thousands of dollars to heat, maintain, and get out of in terms of City "run" holdings.)

And frankly - I do not blame them not wanting to pay for maintenance, city union labour costs and todays insurance rates - on something that they neither paid for, own property on or wish to have the Cities tax payer (pay for) for ANOTHER 50 years.

Do you?

Now - tell me its a great idea - the status quo.

[Lydia]

No, Finally You got it. Thank you Thank you Thank you.

You have finally identified the main issues for having and not having the LVEC. Don said it best and identified the really issue.

Do I think Status quo is best? HELL NO!!!!.

My arguement with you has nothing to do with age or life style, period when dealing with the LVEC. The reasons you JUST identified do. I have been difficult on you so that YOU would present your concerns and I am very thankful you did just that. You are now getting what this website is truly for. We need more of this on here.

As for my age, if you truly need to look it up you have a very boring life. :D :D

One thing I am upset with however is where you say that the LVEC will probably hurt your business. That is a major concern for this city. The reason being is that we need and want ALL BUSINESSES including yours to prosper.

So if you are still upset with me riding you, I apologize for that but I am happy that it took that to get your real thoughts on the LVEC.

Now just for your information, (because you have shared information on your lifestyle) I grew up and owned and operated a Becker Store type business in Sydney, Nova Scotia during my youth. I was a general accountant before retiring and I have always been and am a major networking representative in several self-help business networking groups only in the Toronto Region. I worked for corporations such as Hydro One and General Electric as a trouble shooter dealing with corporation accounts. However, that was then and Now i am retired but still network with various associations.

Age and Life Style has nothing to do with LVEC, however your reasons do. Thank you

[macphail]

Frankly - I believe you are all wrong.

Age is very important to know in a demographic survey.

I'm well aware of how demographics are used for statistical purposes. However, in this case, there isn't a large enough sample from which to draw any conclussions from.

For example, if only one person from the "Male, 20 - 25, Lived In Kingston Always" group were to reply, their opinion is hardly representative of all 20-25 year old males who have always lived in Kingston.

Therefore, I believe it is actually you who is wrong. :p

Cheers, Derek

[Exhibitionist]

Lydia - frankly if you read Mr. Andersons opinions:

He actually missed the reasons behind "financing the LVEC".

He is basically saying that old "local business groups"
(the ones you seem to think you network & work with!) and their profit interests have (influenced the City) "perniously" - to have the City assume ALL the risk for any all losses that may / may not develop over 30 years of deploying the new LVEC.

I simply stated (the possible reasons) why the City is "persuing the route/process for (Federal Grants) - the main financial support for the LVEC.

Don - thinks its a local conspiracy - and I stated the actual facts!

Mr. Anderson also seems to assume (the total financing of the LVEC, hockey team, recreational time, entertainment uses associated with the Memorial Centre or LVEC) - should be SOULY the owners/local business (you know) be totally responsibile for all the financing. (now and in the future)

Or in other words:

The City has no need or responsibilty to support in any way, shape or form, (financially)
in community centres (Cookes Brothers/Wally Elmer), LVEC, or Market Square for the citizens who actually use it.

Business leaders that wish it to help support the "local" economy - must do these things on their own! They have the monies right? Governments should not have anything to do with such facilities!

Privitize it all!!!!

And I disagree.

That was my point. - why a private / public process is underway. (And that you do not get the point - privatization!)

It has nothing to do with: good reason(s) to have an LVEC nor a bad reason(s) to have an LVEC.

It is simply to address CLEARLY the process/reasons - for financing.
- in a context that makes some sense - instead of "conspiracy theory".!!!!

And - see if you would "get the Point" on Privatization.

And you did not!

I agree - with the sampling size - would not be large enough.

But, I also (I believe) the general age brackets I am convey with here are definitely not 20-25.

But, I still say the reasons behind my survey are the proper reasons stated!

[Lydia]

The more we speak the clearer you get.:D :D

My position only: " When it comes to the LVEC and the Multiplex, My wish would be that there is a COMBINATION OF BOTH PRIVATE AND PUBLIC funds associated with the ventures.

Example: I want the Mutliplex to have a kitchenette available for groups to come in and enjoy the facility without having to buy from a restaurant chain. I also want to have Tim Horton's, Kentucky Fried Chicken, MacDonalds, Wendys or similar chains to come into the facility and be available for people who are attending tournaments. That is a very small issue for alot of people however it does illustrate what I am talking about when it comes to private (Chains) and public (Kitchenette) being in the same establishment and funds becoming available from both.

When it comes to swimming in a 50 meter pool (Olympic tournments would be sponsored by private businesses ) and (City Pools for residents on a day to day basis being provided by the public moneys)

When it comes to the LVEC (Tournaments, Ice Shows, Concerts, Conventions etc - Private) (Community Artist guilds, Church Choirs, etc - Public )
The Private sector should pay into these centers as well as the City for anything that the community members do)

I would never be happy for the facilities to be complete Private or Public. Try a joint ownership by both.

[Exhibitionist]

Dear Lydia;

I can appreciate your way of thinking (I think your heart is in the right place) - because I was once from the suburbs of Toronto - a form of simple aggrogant world economic centers...

But, now if you may have noticed/read - private food chains are NOT good for very many things - including this community.

1) We are loosing the "local Beckers" types - to Walmart

Replaced with fast food joints and Starbucks.. That is not a good way to "build capacity" - ownership in communities.

Fast food - leads to corporate profits for generally US firms.
- that do not stay here.

Fast food - leads to obesity. (young skaters may not need this)

Fast food - no appreciation for "real food", farmers or local processors/growers. And expanding maybe their minds to other foods...with out a toy/prize!

What I mean by "privatization" - is my point to Mr. Anderson only.

That our "local" businesses and the City invest in: positive, valued added and long term enrichments of our community and its children. (Such as Wally Elmer, LVEC's and alike)

Not (all the same), cookie cutter homogenized suburban lifestyles that you can see everywhere - such as the local Rio Centre, or suburbans of New York, or Europe.

WE do not need more consumerisim as such - Made in China , McDonalds or Walmart - we need less! (Maybe watch the series on China Rising - on CBC Sunday night this may enlighten you of what really is going on) - if you do not read.

Sorry about the spelling .....:cool:

[Lydia]

This is becoming dangerous. I am just starting to agree with you a tiny bit. :D :D
I agree with you on the chains (Walmart, Starbucks, McDonalds) and the idea about nutricial value of REAL food from our farmers.

Thank you for telling us about the show on China on the CBC on Sunday. I will make an effort to watch that program. Please tell me what time it is on. Is it on Satellite?(or do you know)

[Don Anderson]

You win *************. You win and I’m exhausted but thanks to your tireless effort to: shed light on this issue while politely accommodating my obvious inability to understand the complexities of business, I'm feeling much better about this whole thing. When powers of reason are in short supply, paranoia and conspiracy theories come knocking.


I finally get it. It is impossible during any fiscal period in the future that any portion of my land taxes will be used even indirectly to pay any costs, losses or cover any debt credited to any asset in which private business manages during the same or previous fiscal periods to operate and realize profit. Those individuals doing business there have contracted to personally cover any deficits associated with those assets. Hallelujah I finally get it. Again, my gratitude to: you, the Mayor and Council who labor selflessly in the service of truth and transparency. :)

[Exhibitionist]

China Rising CBC - Sunday night (I think 7 or 8 p.m) - I think its the 3rd part of the series?

You missed some bad stuff..on past of 3 parts..

i.e no envromental laws with true government backing from "officials" - payoffs and intimidation..etc.
lots of riots, but not reported on, demolishing older city residential homes for big city condo's and industry - with no due justice but payoffs,lawyers go missing if they try to sue for residences to stay in their homes..etc. (Capitalism / with an old communist stripe)

Its ugly.

Remember its only a show right! You do not live there! bias right?

They also show the rich side of things to of course.


Ummmm....Mr. Anderson. I don't think you get it. There are no guarrantees in life.

All I'm saying is the Memorial Centre is toast! - no one , especially the main stakeholders will use it or pay the new insurance premiums any more. (It is a death trap!) Needs huge..investment to redeploy.

The agricultural Society owns the property - has leased the land/building for the past 50 years. To the City. (For a take.)

They the business groups such as the Springers - have for years - invested, lost and lost again..and would likely move the team , and all the events and fair would go..as they are dieing every year - if something is not done by the entire community - to show some actually support - for fairs, "local" teams and community rinks - instead of conspiracy theory.

I suppose you are now going to say - they can afford to lose money - right! All you care is that (your taxes don't go up)

I think you maybe still hung over from the 60's? I hear some underlinings in your permanently wired "left" side of your brain. Go live in there and hide. (go to the suburbs or in the country and do what you want)

[Lydia]

Thanks again Don for saying it as it is.

We will both let Individual be the ""Winner"". I perfer to be on "Our Side" the one where most of the residents in this city stand. The side which can and do see clearly as to who will get the shaft by lack of transparency.

Funny thing about transparency. It is something that will HIDE issues or is it something that people see through it even thought people try to hide issues.

[Exhibitionist]

Thanks again Don for saying it as it is.

Dons - "perception" is based on the Whig selling papers, and X-files epiodes.

We will both let Individual be the ""Winner"". I perfer to be on "Our Side" the one where most of the residents in this city stand. The side which can and do see clearly as to who will get the shaft by lack of transparency.

Winner / lossers - come on get a life. Your "commitment" comes from your individual motives.

Funny thing about transparency. It is something that will HIDE issues or is it something that people see through it even thought people try to hide issues.

Transparency - ya right - give me a break.

YOU did'nt read the business plan, you don't attended any public meetings, you drive, shop and consume in the burbs, never walk downtown. Nor live near downtown. Or wish to. No parking I guess...and you like your cars. (Ever heard of global warming?)

You also must realise (in the west end) it is becoming another "suburban copy of Toronto" - the only difference I see is the lack of a CN tower to pray to. (so far)

I think its the ones in the suburbs that feel they have everything they need (and everything to loose) in the new T.O suburbs of Kingston. Why would they need the LVEC?

They have everything NEW anyways - Home Depot, new recreational facilities, new roads, new sewers, multiplexes, Malls, McDonalds, and their waspy friends. What else would good retired people need? They deserve it right!

Multiplex - a editiorial in the paper today. A woman from the burbs - says that the children in "Bayfeild and Amherstview and surronding areas - would be able to now bike to the complex". Ya - right in her dreams! They get driven like all kids do these days..

She also says - downtown children - "have had it to good for to long". Its the amalagmated areas that "desire" the multplex near them. (Like everything else built in Kingston these days...)

I think its the suburbs are the danger here.

They will be directly competing to "old downtown". Its already happening (right)
- and look at the downtown infastructure.

Do you really think if "the 10 mil" came available (because they do not build the LVEC) that the suburbs would not demand to have "their" park rinks refurbished, or disneyland would be added to the multiplex site? Your taxes would go where YOU want them then right!

And the rinks being refurbish downtown and the LVEC - can go to hell!

Not that you Lydia or Don - ever use the rinks!

People cannot discover new lands until they have the courage to lose sight of the shore.

[Lydia]

Well I think Don and I hit a nerve with you Individualist. The problem with people like you is that is it a US VERSES THEM attitude.

Downtown versus Suburbs. This is the only problem that exists in this city and for only a (small group of people). It is 20th century not the 18th or 19th century. You and not Don or I are selfish. People like you are protectionists and scared of CHANGE. They live in their ivory tower and afraid to get out in the suburbs. Stop being jealous of the reasons people live where they live. Try being happy with youreslf.

I have lived in the city and in the suburbs BOTH (Toronto proper and Brampton). There are just as many advantages in both even thought there are different ones in both locations.

Hate to break it to you, I live in THE CITY OF KINGSTON, I don't live in suburbs (Napanee, Bath, etc) Personally I actually prefer to go out to the burbs. Try it sometime!

I have friends who live in the downtown core and they are very lucky people because they chose the location on THEIR WANTS AND NEEDS. I personally will support them in every way I can. I CHOOSE TO LIVE IN THE WEST END FOR MY REASONS. Hopefully instead of being jealous you realize that you choose downtown for your needs and wants.

I have what i want and need. Do you?

I am still waiting for a PROPER BUSINESS PLAN, that doesn't hid or exagerate costs. The public meetings I attended were downtown. Just maybe you should get involved with the www.KCAL.ca group and read what DOWNTOWN PEOPLE ARE REALLY SAYING. Until free parking becomes available for 2 hours a day then I fear for merchants that are downtown are losing out and will continue to lose out. If Brockville and Belleville can have this what is wrong with Kingston doing this?

I grew up using buses all might life, I hate driving and always have. Driving my car is a royal pain however due to the fact that it would take me 2 hours to get from the west end to downtown, I have no choice (20th century). At least I am trying to let people know that we need better transit and Malcom Morris is actively working towards better transit which is a hugh start for downtown merchants.

Global Warming?? Tell me are you actively saving energy, resources? Are you buying stuff just to buy stuff and throw away? Ill bet that I use less energy or resources than anyone out there.

The people in the west end do need the LVEC. You do not read well. I gave you reasons for needing it and also for not needing it. I will stand beside the people who believe that the decisions made are best for the ENTIRE CITY not the Your idea of DOWNTOWN.

Selfish of you to want the LVEC AND THE MULTIPLEX ALL DOWNTOWN. Again shows me that you are in an ivory tower and greedy as hell. The people in the west end really want taxes to GO DOWN and the councilors in District 2, 3, 4 are all people who are FISCIALLY RESPONSIBLE.

It is too bad that you DON'T REALIZE that I support SARA MEERS more than you ever could in her desire to keep Wally Elmer. I have done more to encourage councilors to KEEP THE
RINKS in the communities.

What have you done, Other and arque with Don and I about transparency and YOUR need not to have it?

[Exhibitionist]

No Frankly - no nerves were "hit".

Please follow my points: Try not to skirt the issues this time!

Again;

Please READ my "experienced critical opinions" NOT arguments regarding -

1) "Local" Urban Sprawl - (by the way YOU are creating the suburbs) - Napanne is not.
2) Location of Multiplex - I do not what it downtown. I NEVER said this.
3) T.O - in the westend. (i.e street-scapes, Cosco's, Rio Can - (no desernable difference)
4) Business Plan - (are forecasts ONLY - maybe just read the first one - to start!)
5) KCAL - I checked - their web info- a wanta be Queens prof. info- is absolutely wrong!)
6) Cars - CO2 - it makes a difference on how much you use them - to WHERE you live!
7) You had a choice - you "choose" - to live the next 30 years - where YOU NEED a car!
8) Do you own a micro wave, do you have solar power, do you have a dryer, do you live in a 1500 + sq ft home, how do you water your grass lawn, do you compost, do you use only enviromental friendly cleaning products, do you use a barrel for your garden watering, do you use salt in the winter, do you ride your bike (to the rink?), walk to shop?, do you encourage your neighbours to do the same, do you invest in ethical funds? (I personally do ALL of the latter and more) P.S - tell the truth.
9) Transperancy - yes - I agree there could have been a 2nd "location" choice for LVEC.


But I think you speak with a fork tongue.

You say your for the need of an LVEC - but say your against it in principle, because you did not get (really) a 2nd "choice" of locations. (Other than that - X-file thinking..)

10) Downtown folks - Mr. Downes group - they are mostly (YOUNG) liberal arts prof's, writers, teachers, poets (60's eh Don)

They are against "change" period. They lived the past 30-40 years in T.O etc. and have seen the "BAD changes" there.- i.e urban sprawl, box stores, housing expenses, pretentious Cosco competition, traffic issues DVP...etc. (like we see now starting in the suburbs of Kingston!) - get it yet?

11) I have no problem with change. But, not for the sake of "change itself".
12) I know more about the "macro/micro" level of these facilities than you or Don or most of the city. You folks have never worked in the industry - and have not even read the business plan, or know the "value" of investing into something (more than yourselfs)
I see know "true evidence" you have any background or knowledge in such matters. As I asked the KCAL - "show me the beef"..I checked on their support research - it was "mutually exclusive" of the LVEC. Based on US data on "skydome / baseball stadiums - in the early 90's - when baseball was declining / and the facilities being built in "getto's" totally void of any services, privately owned land and poor infastructure. And that was/is KCAL (Main) argument. Our LVEC is the same! Bull - goes to show you how ignorance - killed the cat. And without reading the business plan, going to all public meeting and maybe event going to a facility or two in your life and asking "hows business"?? Maybe then you may have (30%) of an idea
on actually how, why, when, where the LVEC is the "LVEC".

Again; I do not want to seem pretentious - I do have some background 20 years in the industry. And know, most of Kingston (especially Mr. Downes area - has not!)

There is no us verses them - in my thinking. NAYSAYER - seemed to be the bias ones, and those that do not have a clue / or wish to about the "facts".
(read the business plan at least!)

I only ask people before they comment and make "decisions" - or vote - or anything that effects the ultimate outcome of a "major proposal" such as the LVEC! - be informed.

Or shut up!

And put you energy and (your 20+ experience) into something you are truly knowledgable interested, or pasionate about.

Not base everything on - "whats the Government going to do for me / or against me"...this time..TAXES!! I spoke them - because..I actually did the research - see earlier form. (and READ it)

Or...duh - maybe (I) should get into a stupid forum AND put a letter in the Whig - with unfounded and little background, and even more selfish motives - and feel good about it.

Ya - Thats individualistic "American" thinking. Such as the likes of....most in this debate.

[Valley]

Some of the discussion in this thread seems to assume that mega-projects such as the LVEC or the multiplex are the best use of limited public funds. But I suspect that many local residents have not accepted that these projects are critical infrastructure investments for Kingston. Neither project seems particularly accessible or affordable for many of our residents.

Its interesting to note that less seductive, but certainly important, projects such as libraries, neighbourhood recreation facilities, pools, affordable housing, etc. seem to be largely off the radar of City Council. These seemingly lesser municipal services form a vital part of our social infrastructure.

[Exhibitionist]

Yes - it is amazing (in general) how money can be found for "sports facilities" such as "skydome", "Olympics" - that generally loss money.

And that "social" funds - i.e daycare - cannot seem to make it (off) the platform(s) - of our elected leaders!

(Although neither the LVEC / nor the Multiplex...are MEGA Project! These are very small projects in comparison - they are not in the same league whats so ever with your thinking.)

But, I agree - finally someone (that truely understands the - general "public" iissue needs should come first).

Most in the forum - Lydia/ Don etc. Think of themselves first. (Taxes.)

They seem to be more concerned about - their taxes - but they say NOTHING about homeless, marginalised and healthy community needs.

That being said - I beleive there is a need in both areas.

I believe the Memorial Centre, Hockey and civic pride has alot to do with it. THere is a need to replace the Memorial Centre that is "multifunctional" - absolutely!

I also believe generally its a "****" topic/project than - any homeless wants.

In a culture that is rather conservative, middle class suburban, along with institutional/government workers with long term job security. I think Kingson and cities such as T.O - have relatively steady employment - /money - and with that an attitude that the poor are poor because they are lazy. (except maybe for a few liberal prof's at Queens/ and local social justice advicay groups) - although they tend to get their funding from government political forces- the suburbs of T.O elect to office!

Thus, the interest in affordable housing, welfare and social assistance (mainly from Harris years) - T.O suburbs voted for! - punished the people on the fringes of our society, along with downsizing companies, global competition, and thus began workfare! "They should earn it - instead of just given it." That is the history/structure/mentality here today.

I think this is one of the main - reason why people have more interest in the building of an LVEC - than raising welfare rates 20% to pre 1995 levels.

[Lydia]

Valley Thank you, You are 100% correct. Individualist thinks that I am FOR THE MULTIPLEX AND LVEC. What a load of crap. He obviously has not read any of my statements . All he wants is to put down the people who do not live downtown. The Us versus Them mentality.

Individual get off your butt go to the ever first thread that I have ever put on hereand realize that what VALLEY JUST SAID IS EXACTLY MY POINT OF VIEW.

All the other crap i have been given YOU ONLY is because I want to get you to show your true colors.

Thanks Valley, you have gotten Individual to FINALLY ADMIT that he believes like we do that the ORDINARY TAXPAPER WOULD MUCH PREFER THE MONEY SPEND ON THE LVEC AND MULTIPLEX BE USED FOR BETTER PROJECTS THAT YOU HAVE MENTIONED.

FINALLY, INDIVIDUAL YOU JUST GOT IT.

[Exhibitionist]

This is actually what you said:

I firmly believe that this City NEEDS LVEC AND MULTIPLEX AND ALL OF THE OTHER PROJECTS. What people are truly fighting over is waste of funds just because some politicians choose not to listen.

Why I started the forum to begin with was:

To point out - "what WAIST of funds"????

What (non listening/what non discloser?)???

How can people come to that conclusion withOUT...

1) Reading the business plan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!
2) Actually knowing about the problems/insurance/etc. of Memorial Centre
3) Actually going to (all )the public meetings/ and listening!
4) Actually getting why Mr. Rosen was elected (Replace the M - Centre)
5) All the other projects were "already" - in the pipe. (i.e treatment plant)
6) Taxes have gone up - because of my FIRST FORUM POINTS (read it)
7) These are NOT Mega Projects - Kingston has no experience saying so.
8) Us verse what? Are you listening? Suburbs - did you see China Rising?
9) LVEC - / multiplex are going to happen - its a matter of where, when!

10) The "majority" want it/need it - (I think you have it backwards.)
11) Your taxes - are YOUR MAIN concern. (So, you can save it - go on cruises no doubt.) While the rest of us on fixed incomes- get by.

Maybe next time get you HEAD out of your "butt" and read what we say -

And then and only then. Tell us you "honest" personal ideas- instead of hiding behind "politically correctness"....

- such as the "leaders" you seem to think are not being "honest".

And by the way; (disclouser) you still have NOT answered any of my questions in any of the forum.

To remind all.

This is a forum on taxation in Kingston: its history, it's impacts, its true relation to current / past project needs/ wants. (That is the format)

Try to bring something to it - with some depth. Not fluff.:confused:

Thank you.

[Don Anderson]

*************

On one hand you suggest my concerns don’t make sense; that the writer must be incompetent and then you continue on to rebut issues that don’t make any sense to you in the first place. You make space available and take time questioning the competence of others thereby somehow empowering your position. You presume to shadow others with aspersions; either questioning their health or their right to differ with your augments; many of which by the way, I find lucid but wrong. You suggest that by not supporting millions in borrowing and spending to amuse the middle class that I must lack empathy for the poor and homeless. There is something exotic about that kind of logic - I just don’t have the schooling to appreciate it I guess.


Is it possible other readers glean from my mad postings that I just want to be protected from what I regard as an unhealthy relationship between business and government? Do you think it strengthens your position to interpret the nonsense you read as my having a belligerent attitude against the poor? Is it possible (although you wouldn’t be the first or last) that you are just pimping off the misfortune of the downtrodden to bolster your position as if others aren’t likely to notice? Let me for a moment; share your concern for the disadvantaged. There are indeed down-on-their-luck folks like the Springers whose obsessive philanthropy is at the root of their penchant for loosing money. Unlike you, I haven’t met any personally (except maybe my wife’s cousin Ed Mervish (he’s a doll by the way)) but I’ve heard rumors to that effect. It is my concern that the City of Kingston keeps its fiscal house in order so that there is still a safety net in place when they too are cold and on the street. There … you happy?..now I have to go wash my keyboard.


All I am asking is that the price of admission at a future LVEC or MLTPX event be $25 if that is what it takes to prevent deficits. I don’t want the ticket price to be $18 because that is the ticket price in Peterborough or Belleville. I don’t want an $18 ticket price with the other $7 showing up like a ghost in the future tax notice of the fixed income rate payers you try not to notice rifling the sales bin at the grocery store. What? Can’t charge $25 because it isn’t worth it and they won’t come? How could you find comfort in a situation like that except to argue “well everybody is doing it and besides, I’m doin’ OK”?


If philanthropists without tax accountants are going broke due to their selfless mission to public service, let’s take a hard look at the problem and cut’em a check. They’re people too, different address maybe but otherwise just like the homeless you were selling in your last post. I don’t mind that, as long as it has a line item and isn’t hidden away in tax rates beyond the reach of open public debate. I don’t know how you can disagree with my position?

[Exhibitionist]

Its not a matter - of just saying things out loud!

Its ok you have your "position". But, have some proof to substantiate it!

I just question - how you get to your opinions / from my "experience" with LVECs, local taxes and marginalized persons.

Did you ever take philosophy?

It is the idea of making an argument.

It is not mandatory in this country, but it should be.

Because you/ and others seem foreign in the idea of "critical opinion" that includes some proof!

Then you get offended! Yikes - what do you want from me simpathy?

FYI -

I have worked with both "sides of the fence" - they have their own "cultures". They have their own priorities.

My suspisions - infact have been (proven in this forum).

a) Taxes will rise/or be hidden - as a result of an LVEC is the main issue.
b) Generally; people do not understand what the LVEC is / or could be
c) LVEC - is an economic boost to the "Regional Centre" - Kingston.

This is my FINAL - "clear" evidence on this forum. (from the latter)

1) No one has bothered to read the business plan. on the LVEC.
2) No one has done any research or has a clue about Kingstons "relationship" with "taxes" to the LVEC.
3) No one in this forum - seems to want to admit any of the above. (or prove otherwise - with facts - to start!)
4) No one here - are really interested in the growing past 10 years of the homeless,
let alone the LVEC etc. They are interested in themselves, and the money they wish to NOT spend on either.

Remember you voted for Harris, Rosen etc,. not me! - thats proof in that. (don't blame them - if you voted!)

6) My "critical opinions" are "Lucid and wrong" - well prove it then!

7) Unhealthy - bwt Gov. / business - why? Tell us why?
- With real evidence not anidotal dribble! Thats what the forum is about. Get it?

8) Springers - what are you talking about - they have invested more of their money and efforts than you have for the betterment of this community. (Maybe stop reading the gossip in the Whig - and actually do something "free" for some organisation - and NOT just once in awhile)

9) Accountants - there a dime a dozen.
- Get one I'm sure you could use one. It may save you "some" taxes - no doubt. You would like that.

10) Ticket prices - read the business plan - its in there....and "pay" attention to inflation.

The world is NOT going to stay the same - and is moving faster every day.

Frankly; its about time North Americans - started getting on the ball and helping instead of
complaining and taking things for granted.

11) Government town - ya great - steady as it goes eh.

And you seem to know - how things are run eh.

Well; tell me FIRST - how you have such experiences with such matters. Proof. Proof.

Not loafy ego, musician bull.

[Don Anderson]

*************

It's late and I'm hungry. ahhh......ok Here's my experience. When I was 9 my brother asked me for 35 cents for an Fabian record. He was 13 and into American Bandstand. I asked him on allowance day for the 35 cents and he said ... "oh it's ok I'm just going to have it". That's it! That's my experience.

I guess, that's where this carpet bagging tick and all this fevered paranoia started. On the other hand, you have all those degree thingies and 20 years of applauding stuff I don't understand like VIA rail, Air Canada and oh! please stay in Canada S'il vous plait advertising. Obviously I bow to your superiority on these matters. But I'm too old to educate and mostly want to be left alone by folks who have wonderful ideas about what I really ought to be doing with the little money I have. You might say I have trouble seeing the wide angle view. That's the great thing about democracy, don't you think? You don't have to know anything - just hold an ill-informed opinion and a #2 pencil and you're in business.

Let us see the issue in abeyance, rest on our laurels and consider the sewer. Not really a sizzling topic unless of course your toilets don't work. If our sewers fall apart, Kingstonians are going to be all over Harvey like gornish on ...hey wait a minute. This whole thing started with you whining about a tsu feir gelt 40% tax increase? How did you get to schtupping me with this tax & spend dogma?

[Exhibitionist]

I suppose - we all have to just listen sometimes. Even me.

But, I must add - from watching Cogeco 13 ..- last night

Re: Multiplex (pool) issues.

They hit the nail on the head for ALL our interests /projects.

They asked:

1) Do we need another pool - answer yes.
2) Do we want another (pool) - answer - yes
3) Can we afford a 17 mil pool - with all the bells and ..tarzan ropes - (No)

Its the same for the LVEC, sewers, infastructure or any project today
(that has NOT been provided to the citizens - for the past 30-50 years.)

They (ALL) wear out, they all are designed for the need/technology of the time.

- Now we are actually planning for the future. (Not just interest groups getting together and pitching - then digging.)

I think in the case of the pool, sewers, LVEC or anything else..

People need to "SEE" - their taxes (funds) on their tax bils going DIRECTLY - to each project. (itemized)

As you said - and your correct - you want to have tickets (set) at
$ 25.00. Not 18 - then your taxes go up to make up the difference.

I believe people need to SEE the delivery of ALL these important issues/needs...(some are sexier than others.)

-boy I am so interested in sewers - I dream of them at night.

But, as we (all) know - it certainly also makes sense - that alot of these needs are required - NOW (i.e they will cost 10x more) in 10 years.

The cost of materials either for sewers or steel for LVEC support posts - will ALL go up. Its not the 50's anymore - we are running out - plus global competition/ China usage of materials - is NOW and for the next 10 years is going to make materials rise significantly. JUst like gas costs!

So, not all can be done NOW - so what do you do?

I see why - if there is a "greater need/support" - for ice rinks than pools - guess what? (for now) you get ice rinks. (Democracy right)

There will always be a need for sewers - in T.O to Vancouver.
(They were all built at the turn of the century.)

The problem is you don't see them - everyday. There buried!

Sure downtown could use better roads, sewers etc.
(But, would it encourage cars, speeders and alike.)

Our road is being dug up and sewers are being replaced and our community is asking for buried hydro lines etc. (I see our neighbourhood getting sewers, and alot are.) Montreal Street just completed a major sewer replacement. Divison Street is also - with the new police station.

It will take 40 years to "see" the refurbishment of our system...

People - forget that a ton of projects, Police Station, Water Treatment Plants, and all the 7 super build projects are happening...maybe we just need something that can actually be seen as progress..in this traditionally
unfriendly business / Government Town.

Which is frankly - the "regional centre" of Eastern Ontario.

I believe - Kingston needs a "visual" beacon. "Of change".

I feel that this is the (first generational council) that actually
believes it is finally time to change - not for change itself -but we must!! to survive. The cushy Gov. jobs are not growing, business are leaving - Bombardier, Norcom, Domtar - they are good paying jobs replaced by what Starteck!

They realise younger people/couples are "gentrifying" the older neighbourhoods and want to live / work here instead of T.O etc.

And frankly; if we cannot provide some support visual/actual "change"- in work/recreation/etc.- they will not stay to (pay taxes) I do not think KIngston wants to see the early 90's with boarded up shops, and the North Block - a dangerous place - to walk in.

Our sewer system will likely aways be on the fringe - of decay.

I believe the LVEC is both a symbol and a project that both is good for the City residences (new/old) - It may not be the *****est fix - but it is easier to "see / believe progress" - and spin offs - than a buried pipe.

It is about "open for business" - not about not so steady Government jobs anymore for the working/living persons now here.

Retirement is great but you cannot expect to retire from your responsibilities - from the generation - who support your CPP.

[Lydia]

There is a God, Individualist you now see what I have been trying to say. We Need the projects for the future, However, We need to fix our intrastructures first. We need the Financial backers to be forth right and transparent and tell it as it is. Even if we don't like what is being said.

As far as I am concerned you are more educated and experienced than I am. I am not afraid to admit that. However, I also have opinions and experiences that are different from yours and just maybe i see things from the bottom up where you see things from the top down.

I firmly believe that we can have what we Need and then what we want. It is necessary for all of us to become accountable. How does the Council become accountable BY LISTENING TO THE PUBLIC with their views and then taking responsibility to address concerns.

I think this council has shown that they are ready for CHANGE.

[Exhibitionist]

Our sewer system will likely aways be on the fringe - of decay.

There are budgets now / and more money coming from the fed's.

(10 mil is nothing for sewers - if we do not do the LVEC)
That is short term thinking...

Yes, we could use more affordable housing. (bandaid solution)

But, better yet - the long term solution is education, good employment for persons needing "social housing".

Social housing is not a solution. (for single mothers with young children) (with low paying Starteck jobs)

I believe the LVEC is both a symbol and a project that is both good for the all City residences (new/old) - It will provide the revenues and economic tool to promote business to locate here - thus paying taxes, good wages to solve issues (such as housing) and support infastructure for long term community needs. (a multipurpose facility would do this)

Being a Government- the institutions (do not pay tax)
Being a retirement town - the population/incomes will "expire" sooner.

And if large firms are leaving....guess what your / mine taxes will do?
go up to replace the (loss of a tax base)

The LVEC promotes business -

Sewers do not!

It is about "open for business" - for employment, expanding the tax base and supporting existing businesses (that will pay the tax)

Not sewers.

....to say the priority is to fix the sewers,roads first is rather putting the cart before the horse.

Do you see what I am saying - in simpler terms?

[Valley]

The difficulty with the LVEC is that it just seems like another "quick fix" mega project for local economic development (conference centres seemed to be the municipal flavour of the day in the 1990s).

What really seems to attact employers is the attractiveness of both our natural and 'built' community. To keep Kingston attractive to new people, who would live and invest in our community, we need to build and maintain the less **** parts of our local infrastruture: water, sewer, sidewalks, libraries, affordable housing, community centres, schools...

[Lydia]

I almost lost faith in you Individual. The sad thing is that you are correct about the need for the LVEC to be first. It will encourage businesses to come to Kingston.

Do we need it as much as we need intrastructures and helping our society with it's needs. It is truly a catch 22 issue. That is why I have always said that we DO NEED THE LVEC AND THE MULTIPLEX both as well as the other projects. Hopefully, they will attract new businesses which would then help us pay for things we truly need.

May i make a suggestion. Let us get on the bandwagon to help KEDCO attract businesses as well. I really do feel that there is hope again with Kedco. I may be incorrect, however, I have a gut feeling that Kedco will surprise us in Kingston and prove their worth.

[Don Anderson]

*************

I know where you are going. There are extreme examples where family plans in single function communities; those mining towns thrown up in the 1950s that were totally destryed within minutes of the company's decision to close the mine. Quality of life in regard to both family and community development is directly related to long term planning. The bottom fell out of family plans due to narrow focus and what turned out to be a fragile business environment.

Our situation is nothing like that but there is danger of stagnation when a community only commits itself to cleaning, snowplowing and re-paving roads. Kingstonians have always been willing to commit themselves to community development in the interest of quality of life for those struggling to live well and leave a bettered generation behind. There are many dimensions to what we call community life including: education, worship, athletics, amusement etc. All of these commitments lead to deficit economics in the interest of life quality. Kingstonians have to decide if assuming economic burden for these debated business plans is the best way to spend those hard-to-find dollars that will be competing with tuition fees in their future family budget.

This is not really an issue likely to affect the life quality or educational prospects for those families who work hard, do very well and for whom this issue is an abstraction when considered against the larger financial burdens they face personally. It is often the case that these folks of great initiative are those who without public input make decisions for us. There are other folks who vote and who also matter because they pay taxes, who can tell you the current price of gasoline, milk and Hockey skates. The difference between last year's and this year's land taxes is not an abstraction but weighs directly against family vacations and sports equipment. City spending has a very direct effect on their family's quality of life.

[Exhibitionist]

Lost Faith?

I have only been pointing out the reasons behind our historical "tax" increases - to first debunk the "NAYSAYERS" regarding tax increase, in relation to the building of the LVEC.

And for those individuals who think only in terms of their little world - with no interest in the greater good)

Now we get it.

End of this forum.:)

[Lydia]

Kingstonians have to decide if assuming economic burden for these debated business plans is the best way to spend those hard-to-find dollars that will be competing with tuition fees in their future family budget.

We are all on the same page now. I find this usually the case when we discuss situations with both positive and negative issues being addressed. This is what I want OUR COUNCIL do do on every issue. In the middle is the true answer.

I came from Sydney which was a city that depended on the Steel Plant and instead of growth the businesses were protectionists. The reason i came to Toronto was because I was educated and very proactive. What I lost was family connections and safety of being in a cacoon of friends. What I gained was understanding that a city will either grow or fall on one thing.

QUALITY OF LIFE
When it all comes down to it, people live where they choose because something in that location gives people a quality of life that is necessary for their happeness and health. People live according to their means,(financial values) Therefore people who have everything should be happy to try to help people who are less fortunate instead of putting them down. (Kingston Electors site does help every person no matter what walk of life they have because we communicate our needs on here.)

Which comes first the Chicken or the Egg? Which comes first the People or the Businesses? For the people who say the ""People" ask this question. "Would you live where you can not buy anything or be entertained?" For the people who say the "Businesses" ask this question "Would you want to start a business where there are no customers?"

I chose Kingston because now that I am a retired person, I don't have the goal of maintaining a JOB. My career in life is different from just getting a job. My career is to live a life simply, informed, and active. All of Kingston does that for me. I love it here and anyone who lives here should be proud and happy to be in a community that has everything we need to grow and prosper. Otherwise I would still be in Toronto or Brampton.

[Exhibitionist]

City spending has a very direct effect on their family's quality of life.

The City, Provincial, AND the Federal Governments - effect a families "quality of life" - across our nation.

And so do the education/current skill levels of the family members (especially in the 21st Century) including ones spending habits.

The education levels and competition now is a necessity/reality. The 1950 - in North America -
you really could get by very well - with little or no educational degree - for a long term steady (Job)

But, yes each (level of Governence) are elected by you and me!

On the micro level - The LVEC is one (1) of 7 projects the "municipality and Provinical, Federal Governments" are generally funding all the projects (with business partners) to both "actually build and provide all 7 projects".

(Voters) (the ones that did actually vote...in Elections - at each level.) - by electing their community council representatives.

- or during the "representative elective period" - conveyed support/or group support for each publically mandated project


When it all comes down to it, people live where they choose because something in that location gives people a quality of life that is necessary for their happeness and health.

I disagree. The majority of families living here..live here because they have had / or require an income (work) to afford to stay here. (no job - no work) You leave. Except if you are independenly wealthy or retired on a pension. (or both)

Kingston has always been a very

The problem is: the institutions, and larger well paying (JOBS) are leaving KIngston. It may seem like dream world for the retired ones. That had a job in Toronto most of their career - that can afford to live on pensions and 30 years of working.

But, Kingston has never been known as a place - for a career.

It is one of the lowest per capita cities - for growth in (jobs)

And - taxes as per capita is higher here than other cities the same size.
(because our local institutions do not pay residential/corporate taxes)

The difficulty with the LVEC is that it just seems like another "quick fix" mega project for local economic development (conference centres seemed to be the municipal flavour of the day in the 1990s).

What really seems to attact employers is the attractiveness of both our natural and 'built' community.

The LVEC is not necessary a quick fix. The memorial Centre is 50 years old. It has major problems with it. Insurance issues and a 50 year leasing agreement that favors the few - not the community. These "arenas" in Ontario are all very old. Conference facilities - such as MTCC in Toronto, CNE and Place Bonaventure have been around for a long time. They certainly are not something from the 90's.

KIngston LVEC is NOT a mega project. The Skydome was. This is a very small facility in terms of both the population it serves and the budgets required to do it properly. (Multipurpose Centres)

Business are not attracted to Kingston - because its natural or built? community. They are attracted to its education/skilled work force, commercial infastructure, location to transportation routes and its clients, and commerical tax rates - natural settings and limestone buildings come last. (Global competitiveness comes first)

This is NOT the 1950's anymore.

i.e newer regulations for things like: worker saftey, enviromental policy, insurance, union pensions, cost of raw materials i.e gas, wood, metals etc..that we have voted for over last several decades - have lead to the bottom line that employers can afford to charge their clients. Do you realise now - that a $ 15.00 a hrs job - actually costs an employer $ 45.00 per hrs. of cash flow out of the company. ( for insurance, WSIB, pension, raises, etc)

Again- the LVEC - bring buisnesses to us through Trade Shows, Conference and alike. WE do not have ONLY do cold calls! That has not worked - in fact the old KEDCO - just waited for the phone to ring!

[Lydia]

Kingston has never been known as a place - for a career.

Because of the Technology, Kingston can become the place for Career building and Business development. Our young people do not need to move like my generation did to get a career.

We need to establish industries that promote and feature technology. People can work from home today with the use of computers, telephone conferencing, etc. Our educational systems are advanced and can produce high qualified work force. The question here is, "would our young people want to stay in Kingston if there is nothing here for entertainment, sports, etc.?"

I believe that the young people today don't necessarily want to travel long distances like my generation have. With new technology, young people can have careers where ever they call home.

[Exhibitionist]

We need to establish industries that promote and feature technology.

Sure. If you are an entrepenuer - technology is one of many "tools".

But, for most young persons that (work for somone else) Such a "home office" is mostly for salespersons.

Most people need to be at the office. There is very little at home offices for full time employees.

People beginning their careers are not just "technology based industries".

10% health science, 20% manufacturing, 10% high tech (IT),
56% service industry, misc.

These are the percentages: of were the workforce is going in terms of careers availablility.

The service industry trend is increasing..
(these are not home office positions.)

The other 40 odd percent of work - can only be found outside Kingston.

i.e Markham of IT, Manufacturing: Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa
i.e health science: (Bioscience companies, like Pfiser) Toronto, Ottawa

Kingston - does not have any of 40% of decent paying opportunities.
Kingston - does have service industries (Tourism) - pay is low / not stable.

Kingston - has Government services - but they are being privatized.

The reality is: we need a more diverse economy so people have work/opportunities here - rather than everywhere else.

That would support (long term) - tax base.

[Lydia]

Sure. If you are an entrepenuer - technology is one of many "tools".

But, for most young persons that (work for somone else) Such a "home office" is mostly for salespersons.

You are thinking in side a box. You believe that you can have a home base working environment only as an entrprenuer and that this belongs only to salespeople.

You are looking for a JOB. If you are looking for a career then you must realize one important factor. YOU ARE A SALESPERSON. You are selling yourself to the highest bidder that wants and NEEDS your skills. YOU DO NOT WORK FOR A COMPANY. YOU ARE PROVIDING SERVICE TO A COMPANY which requires you skills.

The reason Kingston isn't the place for high tech is that people do not realize that this should be where the workforce should be headed. I agree that students are not taught that they are important to a business and its growth. It is them that will make or break a businesses.

I have one question how many students networking with mentors in the industries that wish to work in? We are ALL ENTREPRENEURS. Sure many people work for ABC company or what have you. However, the employees are there because they are providing SERVICE and skills.

The only difference between the EMPLOYED and the Work in Transition (UNEMPLOYED) is that people do not know their real value and that they do not realize what skills they truly possess. Sure they have education and Sure they are good with "people". So is everyone else.

When asked the following question they have a hard time answering. "What are your greatest asset to a company and can you prove it." Ask them to introduce themselves in ONE MINUTE so that the VP would want to hire them.
Can you do it? ( I believe you can but most people have a very hard time with that concept.)

I me a young man (18 years old) who started an international business who has dealt with reducing salt on the highways in Brampton. I wonder why others have not done the same. When our grandparents INVENTED WHAT THEY NEEDED, I ask where are our inventors and who can help them?

Where did the present industries come from? Which Industriest can we point out to the this generation. Staying home and working from it is only one way to start industries ( not the only way but it is a way and it achievable) How do i know. My daughter is doing just that. (She is a Computer programmer)

[Exhibitionist]

Where did the present industries come from? Which Industriest can we point out to the this generation. Staying home and working from it is only one way to start industries ( not the only way but it is a way and it achievable) How do i know. My daughter is doing just that. (She is a Computer programmer)

I am thinking outside the box - or BIGGER - for the reasons below:

Where is your daughter - Toronto. / At Home with mom?

(IT) a very - iffy business. And very volitile - trend moving to India...

Most IT people frankly - lack interpersonal skills - we are not made from one mould.

Examples of why we need "larger/established and better paying opportuniies in Kingston:

i.e Norcom Kingston - (IT) employed 450 people here - GONE.
i.e Bombardier Kingston - employed 450 people here - GONE.
i.e Alcan - use to employ 2000 - down to 350 people - GONE

Yesturday they announced :

- closing a large plant in Belleville (150 people gone!)

Strathcona Plant - Napanee: Closing the plant - GONE!

I am talking about the LVEC:

- and how it can help attract "mature solid businesses here"
- not home based business (IT) , Not 19th century entrenpenuers.

I'm taking about a diverse solid companies that are longer term than any "home based" business that generally are out of business in 2-4 years!

All of the current and past major industries - in Kingston- that hired lots of younger people for a long term presents - are leaving or have left town.

We need larger companies NOW - not in 10 years when they come out of the basement! Kingston - is not T.O

Kingston - needs to work smarter and harder for companies NOW.

Sure many people work for ABC company or what have you. However, the employees are there because they are providing SERVICE and skills.

MOST people that "work" - WORK for other people.

And for large /medium size firms. They do not work for themselves.

Most may think they want to be their own bosses - most also think its a way to "get rich".

Most (8 out of 10) within 2 years - go work for someone else.

And loss money. Because they may have computer skills - but no nothing about running a profitable business.

I have one question how many students networking with mentors in the industries that wish to work in?

York University is the only one (I know) have mentors. - Queens NO.

We are also not ALL entrepenuers - thats not true.

Our educational system does not facilitate - entrepenuership.

The only difference between the EMPLOYED and the Work in Transition (UNEMPLOYED) is that people do not know their real value and that they do not realize what skills they truly possess. Sure they have education and Sure they are good with "people". So is everyone else.


This is also false. Most unemployed in Kingston - do not either have the opportunities for (good, sustainable, workwhile work) or have no economic resources, education or skill levels that the 21st century requires of them.

Not ALL people - are "good with people" - that is also false.


When asked the following question they have a hard time answering. "What are your greatest asset to a company and can you prove it."

I worked for 25 years for several companies - profit (large, small) , non profits and run a business.

I have never heard any employer ever ask such a question.

If you have an interview (They are already interested in your assets)

Technical background, experience and mainly the "fit" of their business culture - is what they NEED - then and only then would you get an offer.

Where did the present industries come from?

Overseas, US buyouts, and laid off employees.

When our grandparents INVENTED WHAT THEY NEEDED, I ask where are our inventors and who can help them?

Most things invented: (we don't really need) or have been invented.
- I cannot think of to may more things one really needs.-

Again; its a matter of encouraging "true businesses" to locate in Kingston - NOT basement (IT) marginal employment. That does not help the community in the long run/short term. We need these business NOW.

[Lydia]

Individual, Stop being jealousy of people who have computer skills. I see you have a small amount yourself.

Secondly, My Daughter is a YORK GRADUATE WITH COMPUTER SCIENCE DEGREET. Do You?

Thirdly, Your are a shining example of what not to be. You worked for 25 years and obviously have NOT LEARNED A THING.

Are you sure you are NOT LIVING WITH MOMMY, you sound like it because of your statement of having jobs all over the place and even tried your hand at owning your own business.

My son and daughter work for Internet Businesses, traveled the world teach people IN INDIA.

So before you try to intiminate me. Know who you are dealing with. You don't know me and you don't know who I KNOW. I owned my own business, big deal.

Now what???

[SLN]

Hey Lydia and *************.

There's a forest throught the trees you two have planted. :) I'd like to try and outline it if I might..

Both of you seem to agree that Kingston lacks quality employment opportunites. Both of you believe that Kingston needs to do something to attract these businesses taht can offer good employment.

Lydia, I believe you have a more "21st century" picture of the realities of employment - ie, there are very few pensioned positions and there aren't more likely to be opened up. It won't matter if the biggest company in teh world set up shop here, they'd likely hire on contract anyway. ************* I think you are looking for what most of us wish we could find - a good job working for a solid, publicly traded company with benefits, security, and a pension plan. It's a dead dream, I believe.

But Lydia, it isn't true that most of the unemployed or underemployed (an even BIGGER segment of the population) can't do well on interviews or write a decent resume, or have education. I am one of the underemployed. I dont' know the right people and I think that's the bottom line. The good jobs in Kingston are unionized and you can't break into them unless Uncle John or momma works there already.

Globalization has given away the good jobs to developing countries precisely BECAUSE they are publicly traded. The bottom line is all that matters and while labour and oil are both relatively ***** offshore, this trend will continue. It'll be the oil-crisis that drives jobs back home, and competition might come back into the picture for workers, increasing wages and benefits.

Until then, Kingston is a victim of the wide economic climate. We failed to become a major shipping port because of the railroads, and now - well we're still playing catch-up.

[Lydia]

I dont' know the right people and I think that's the bottom line. The good jobs in Kingston are unionized and you can't break into them unless Uncle John or momma works there already

SLN, Thank you very much. The funny thing about forests is that people come out to see them. I love arguing with Individual just for that reason that we are both on the extreme edges (Dispite what he says.:D :D )

Having said that Your statement is the middle ground and the REAL truth. You are exactly in the middle of the road. You wish you had the stability of REAL jobs and you can't them until you know someone who can or a Uncle John or Mom.

If i could show you how people can help you, would you REALLY take the steps in finding ""NOT A JOB"" BUT "A Career which pays"??

Let's try this on here. SLN, if you could have what your heart really wants are you prepared to get it. Tell us what that can be. Just maybe someone on here could help out in giving contacts to a future business partner in the career SLN would like.

By the way, if you are waitress in a restaurant, a secretary in an office, if you are builder, if you are a doctore, don't be shy ifyou know of anyone who could help get one more person of the EI line, lets do it. I know everyone of you are not in his career choice but some of us know people who would be.

Lets Help out.

[Lydia]

You must really depressed when people said you should think positive. You probably say, "If that's what I have to do to survive, I'm never going to make it."

Okay,*************. ill change you. When SLN gets back to us and lets us know what line of career he wants. Lets see who can HELP SLN gets the position he wants. You or me.

Lets put our money where our mouths are???? lol lol

[Exhibitionist]

Lydia - I believe SLN is female.

And she seems ok for work?

The LVEC would help the masses - with stable good employment in Kingston.

Growing the tax base........for long term.

Not Startecks. For short term low paying jobs.

Get it?

[macphail]

The LVEC would help the masses - with stable good employment in Kingston.

Thank you for the biggest laugh of my day!!!

Sorry...but the LVEC is not a silver bullet. There are benefits to be had by building a multi-purpose facility, but it isn't going to help the masses with stable, good employment.

Cheers, Derek

[Lydia]

I KNOW SLN can get what SLN wants and she will. How I said what can you do to help??? Have you even asked???? hUMMMMMMMMMMMM?

I have one question for you now. How much money do you have to make to consider the 'JOB" A good job????? Again I find you cutting down people's jobs.

I say the hell with ""THE JOB"" I say what career do you want to be in. GET IT??? You keep saying the LVEC is going to bring in good jobs. PRAY TELL what ones are they anyway. Let the people that would be interested in working there what they are???

Just for the record. How many people with the LVEC will make over $100,000 a year??? After all, you do say the LVEC will bring in GOOD JOBS. By the way would you consider a VP of finance a good ""JOB"" ???

[Exhibitionist]

How much do (I) think? I already spoke to that previously. But, to remind you!

Starteck - hourly wage $10- 15.00 per hour (no community security)

Nortel, Ellis Don, GrinnellSimplex, Air Canada - hourly wage $ 23 - 28.00.

For a family of 4 - which would you prefer - for our community? DUUUUUUUHHHH????

Career / job - whatever

Just "pay attention - stop thinking so selfishly or so small minded."

The community needs "good paying work" here - NOT STARTEK!!!!!

Got it yet?

If anyone needs help here looking for "basic work" - minimum wage, entrepenuer help or some skill labour jobs........

- in Kingston there are Keys, Opportunities Kingston, HRSDC, March of dimes, Job finding club etc.

But, unfortunately - there are NOT the "quality/higher paying type of work" in Kingston you can find in large urban cities. - Period. (But, how would you know? - being retired!)

Yes - there is old money here, and a institutional mentallity.

Oh ya ...the Sir John A McDonald - club.

(Which helps no one but themselves!)

I think you would fit in the latter - club just fine!!!!!!

Lydia - can you give us "something" that either finally- intelligent or helpful?

[Exhibitionist]

I am thinking outside the box - or BIGGER - for the reasons below:

Where is your daughter - Toronto. / At Home with mom?

(IT) a very - iffy business. And very volitile - trend moving to India...

Most IT people frankly - lack interpersonal skills - we are not made from one mould.

Examples of why we need "larger/established and better paying opportuniies in Kingston:

i.e Norcom Kingston - (IT) employed 450 people here - GONE.
i.e Bombardier Kingston - employed 450 people here - GONE.
i.e Alcan - use to employ 2000 - down to 350 people - GONE

Yesturday they announced :

- closing a large plant in Belleville (150 people gone!)

Strathcona Plant - Napanee: Closing the plant - GONE!

macphail - Derek.

If you had actually read my previous discussion on the LVEC forum..and maybe read the LVEC business plan, marketing studies etc. and had any experience with such facilities such as the MTCC, Place Bonaventure , McCormic Place in Chicago - (which I have 20 years experience in)....then maybe you would have something intelligent and thought provocking to actually say.

I NEVER said it would be " a silver bullet" in contrary - I do not think it is.

BUT, for one like yourself that is retired and give to hoots about todays work enviroment (especially in KIngston) and your glib atitude towards anything that does not include (your brillant (other ideas) other than sewers and Casinorama! I would finally be interested to hear them!

But, please read below for a "taste of what the reality is here - from when you were in the work force - or Air Force?

Please tell me I am wrong - what exactly is your background and your expertise in business and community capacity building. I would really like to know.


Examples of why we need an LVEC - and not more sewers............

"larger/established and better paying opportuntiies in Kingston:

NOT STARTEKS, or STARBUCKS!

In the past 5 years........in Kingston.

i.e Norcom Kingston - (IT) employed 450 people here - GONE.
i.e Bombardier Kingston - employed 450 people here - GONE.
i.e Alcan - use to employ 2000 - down to 350 people - GONE

Yesturday they announced :

- closing a large plant in Belleville (150 people gone!)

Strathcona Plant - Napanee: Closing the plant - GONE!

All of the current and past major industries - in Kingston- that hired lots of younger people for a long term presents - are leaving or have left town.

We need larger companies NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

Kingston - needs to work smarter and harder for companies NOW.

[Exhibitionist]

Derek - You must be part of "old Money" or the Sir John "A" Club.

Because you do not seem to have a clue - what the "work enviroment is like here".

I believe the LVEC would (help) Kingston provide both a beacon and a opportunity for business to meet here, (i.e Trade Shows) experience Kingston, and help retain both businesses and thus young people - to develop businesses.. and NOT just Government institutions!!!!!!


I am thinking outside the box - or BIGGER - for the reasons below:


Examples of why we need "larger/established and better paying opportuniies in Kingston:

i.e Norcom Kingston - (IT) employed 450 people here - GONE.
i.e Bombardier Kingston - employed 450 people here - GONE.
i.e Alcan - use to employ 2000 - down to 350 people - GONE

Last week- the news announced :

- closing a large plant in Belleville (150 people gone!)

Strathcona Plant - Napanee: ( 200 people) Closing the plant - GONE!

So, Mr. Macphail - Derek. - how would you help the community? More sewers????

If you had actually read my previous discussion on the LVEC forum..and maybe read the LVEC business plan, marketing studies etc. and had any experience with such facilities such as the MTCC, Place Bonaventure , McCormic Place in Chicago - (which I have 20 years experience in)....then maybe you would have something intelligent and thought provocking to actually say.

I NEVER said it would be " a silver bullet" in contrary - I do not think it is.

BUT, for one like yourself that is retired and does not give two hoots about todays work environment (especially in Kingston) Your glib attitude towards anything that does not include your brillant armchair quif's.

Any (other ideas) other than sewers and Casinorama!

I would finally.......... be interested to hear them!?????????????????????

But, please read below for a "taste of what the reality is here - from when you were in the work force - or Air Force?

Please tell me I am wrong - what exactly is your background and your expertise in business and community capacity building. I would really like to know.


We need solid medium , larger companies NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

Kingston - needs to work smarter and harder for companies NOW.

[macphail]

Derek - You must be part of "old Money" or the Sir John "A" Club.

Because you do not seem to have a clue - what the "work enviroment is like here".

lol

You really are a comedian. You should take your act to Market Square and turn it into an LVEC fundraiser.

I'm not "old money". And I have more of a clue than you do.

And frankly, if you read my posting instead of automatically jumping on your pro-LVEC soapbox, you would see that I agree that there are benefits to building a multi-purpose centre: I simply disagree with your overblown estimation of what those benefits will entail.

For the record, I have read the LVEC business plan. I've probably studied and been involved with more municipal and economic development than you have in fact.

I'll take back the "silver bullet" remark, though the reason for it was the pumped up statement you made about the building of an LVEC would "help the masses".

But what it all boils down to, I'm afraid, is that I'm simply not intelligent enough to have a discussion with you about this subject, you being the expert and all.

Thanks for the insults though. I'll keep that in mind should anyone ever ask about local sign shops.

Cheers, Derek

[macphail]

One other thing, *************:

The idea that you are somehow qualified to interpret survey results and correlate the data to the demographics of the correspondents is down right frightening when one considers you couldn't be bothered to take a minute to figure out who I am.

Cheers, Derek

[Lydia]

*************, I really enjoy seeing your comments. It certainly will go along way to show how unintelligent your remarks are.

You are right I DO GET IT. unfortunately YOU DON'T. Get it straight. Anyone working for anyone IS FORTUNATE. You put down ''low paying jobs"" Shows people how uneducated your comments about employment truly is.

For one thing that these 'LOW PAYING JOBS" DO is help people understand that they need education, they need to understand THEIR SELF WORTH NOT YOURS. These 'JOBS" are actually Educational tools if used properly. These jobs are stepping stones to the "higher paying careers". These jobs are actually training grounds for "higher paying careers". How many people get university degrees and have not a CLUE in running their life. How many people with university degrees GO BANKRUPT because they never learned the basic skills of life?? Are you one of those people with university degress but not intelligence on how to treat people, respect people. I do feel that because you try to put down people like me, you do not have any self-worth.

You keep insisting that we should read the LVEC business plan. GUESS WHAT, I did read it entirely, i agree fully with Derek and I think that If you are the person who drew them up. SHAME ON YOU. Firstly there are SO MANY ASSUMPTIONS in them that it truly does make an ASS U MPTION.

Just for the record, *************, My family also have been in the Entertainment field of work. I know first hand what kind of jobs that are there. Again you didn't answer my question.

HOW MANY PEOPLE WORKING FOR LVEC WILL BE MAKING $100,000.00. I don't expect an answer because you just want to rank and rave and TRY to insult me.

I'm sorry i got you confused. I made you think that I give a dang. Sorry, I don't care ONE BIT about the LVEC either way. I have just reported that the people that are intelligent like the KCAL group, the Taxpapers Group, The Kingston Electors Group are FAR superior to you.

Just for the record Derek has more inside information than you will ever have *************. I'll trust him one hundred percent.

[Exhibitionist]

You put down ''low paying jobs"" Shows people how uneducated your comments about employment truly is.

Ummm. You still do not get it.

That's ok alot of suburban "career, money driven types" usually don't.

ITS NOT GOOD - that the choices for work (in Kingston) are Starteck instead of Norcom! - GET IT!

And your pernitious comment - about "it will teach them" to get an education!

What kind of "mentor" are you? - business mentoring - you know nothing about it.

Don't you believe people with a "higher education or not" - don't work hard?

Its more a matter of ones "opportunities" we are speaking of
-NOT if you have a PHd or not! Or if you make a 100,000 or not.

It the opportunities of "quality work and abundance" that could/would stem from an LVEC - instead of sewers, and shuffle board parks for the likes of you!!

God - are you that dumb or deaf????? How many times do I need to simply, clearlt state this?

OR you just are so - 19th century. Sir John "A" Club member!

Question - if have read - the LVEC business plan - answer me this!

a) What is drayage and its origins?

b) How many sites were reviewed by the task force?

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM?

[Exhibitionist]

For the record, I have read the LVEC business plan. I've probably studied and been involved with more municipal and economic development than you have in fact.

OK - Since you read all of the reports related to the LVEC to make an informed decision!

Answer this: What is drayage and its origins - it in the LVEC report!

And frankly - I think your full of "hot air" - that you oh "are in the economic know".

And I do not give two (2) hoots - about any referrals from you!

1) Most of the business is NOT here anyways - if you had a clue about economics and the industry!

2) And your pictures are not good enough for our clientel
- which could have been a very good client for you!

That's my point. There are NO businesses here of any substance anyways!

Kingston is dead. And anti development. Just like retired old Lydia and nieve you.

[Lydia]

*************

Thank you, you have made me very proud of myself, Thank God I am not you.

I like you dispute your rudeness,
I like all people, Some I like as friends that I want to keep, and people like you I LIKE because you show me now NOT TO BE. Now I KNOW I am superior to you.

It is so clear that you are full of hot air among other things. Here i thought you were educated. You certain straightened me out with your speach "Yada Yada Yada" :D :D :D :D :D

It is very clear that you have a hard time dealing with me and from your comment abount Kingston, you have a hard time dealing with people in Kingston. I bet you even have a hard time with yourself.

[macphail]

And your pictures are not good enough for our clientel


Umm...I take pictures, but not professionally. But if you want to exchange pot shots, why don't you add the link to your company's webpage so that others can comment on how good (or not) it is? It's interesting that you removed the link from your profile.



Kingston is dead. And anti development. Just like retired old Lydia and nieve you.


Umm...who said I was anit-development?

You have proven that you aren't worth trying to carry on a conversation with, and as such, I'm not going to waste my time responding to your nonsense.

Cheers, Derek