Should KEDCO be dissolved?

[keoadmin]

Should the City of Kingston dissolve KEDCO and encourage local economic development using city hall staff?

Click here (http://www.kingstonelectors.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=1028) to vote on this poll.

[Evelyn King]

;) Hey Lydia:

I think .000000000000000007 may be a better reflection.

Tee Hee

Best regards,

Evelyn

[Lydia]

I am not happy I think i will have to eat my words about Kedco. Having meet Jeff Garrah, I think that I shall keep Kedco because if he does what he has told the Kingston Elector's Elders then I personally will endorse him.

IF what he has spoken about does happen in this city with His help and his staff then we are in for an HUGH improvement in the way businesses will be encouraged to come here.

I always believe in sparing a life of a corporation once I see changes in it. I am willing to give it a chance.

[Evelyn King]

:confused: HI LYDIA:

I GUESS WE WILL HAVE TO AGREE TO DISAGREE ON THIS TOPIC.

WHAT RESIDENTS SHOULD BE DOING IS COMPARING THE TAXPAYERS DOLLARS THAT HAVE BEEN GIVEN TO KEDCO AND NOTING THE LACK OF JOBS THAT HAVE BEEN ACHIEVED THROUGH THIS OUTLAY. PRETTY SAD IN MY VIEW.

I AM SURE IT WILL BE AN INTERESTING DEBATE THIS FALL WHEN KEDCO APPLIES FOR A NEW FUNDING DEAL.
SADLY, WE HEAR THE SAME STORY EVERY BUDGET TIME AND REALIZE MINIMAL RESULTS FROM KEDCO.

JUST MY VIEW.

BEST REGARDS TO ALL

EVELYN KING

[Pookster]

What did Mr. Garrah say to sway your opinion, Lydia?

[Lydia]

My first experience with Jeff Garrah was when he was a guest speaker at the Kingston Electors Elder meeting. Before he started, I explained that I would be NICE there BUT that I was total against Kedco and ready to get rid of it.

Instead of being upset with me, he asked me why I was so against the organization. He was kind, he was courteous, he was friendly and he was NOT ARGUMENTIVE one bit. As he listened to my reasons, he started to address every single issue I had. I told him I was angry with him that night because he has made me EAT MY WORDS. He asked if I would be willing to meet with Mark Hanley his Small Business Manager and facilitated the meeting.

Now 6 years before coming to Kingston I had been very active in setting up and establishing Self-Help Group for the Professional Worker in Transition. (another way of saying unemployed worker). I was seriously thinking of starting my own business again and joined a group called CONNECTUS CANADA. The BEN group or the (Brampton Executive Networking Group) and the CONNECTUS group have changed my life.

Now in 1999 I learned about Kedco and I asked about any group that would help small business owners start their businesses and if there were any group for the Worker in Transition. I went to Kedco and I spoke to a representative and NEVER HEARD FROM THEM AGAIN even thought I asked to be placed on their mailing list for any Seminars that they would hold. Okay So that was my experience, big deal, however, I learned that since that time other people who wanted to start businesses here were treated the same way. The other people moved to other locations because they were much more serious about starting their businesses.

So armed with the following Questions:
1:Industries Which ones are in Kingston that Kedco really knows about?
Other than the well-known ones, What Businesses are in
the process of being developed?
What Industries could actually be established here in
Kingston?
2:Public
Knowledge What has Kedco done to inform the public about New
businesses created in Kingston?
What kind of services are the new start-ups providing for the
public that we don't know about?
Where can the public learn about these new business?
Where can public get to learn about the managers of these
businesses?
3:Job Fairs What kind of Job Fairs do we have in Kingston that the
Worker in Transition can attend?
4:Seminars Can the general public have access to Seminars and where
can people learn about which ones are happening and
When they will be happening?
5: Mentors Who are the people who are mentoring people in transition?
Who are the mentors who are helping our Graduates?
Who are the mentors who can direct the dropouts to get
back in the game of life and employment?
6:Networking Which companies are actually working with each other?
Which companies are helping other businesses that are NOT
in their line of work?
7:Data Base Does Kedco know exactly who they are servicing and do they
have these managers classified so that if anyone is looking
for a service Kedco could actually provide the names of
people providing those services.
8:Honors Where does Kedco give acknowledgement for great new
startup industries?
Who are our business owners that we admire?
9: Trades Do we acknowledge and respect people in the Trades?
Does Kedco even support these businesses and could tell us
how to networking with these people?
10: Conferences Where and when did Kingston have conferences for
business and trade?
11:Regional
National
International What has Kedco done to identify and support business
that will make a difference in the future?
Would Kedco encourage International Guess Speakers on
Business Development to come to Kingston?

All these questions had been acknowledged and Mark Hanley has indicated that this exactly the concerns that are being met by Kedco today. They have not defended their failures of the past. Never once did they try to give reasons for failures. All that Jeff and Mark are saying is this: We are learning to make Kedco exactly what the taxpayers are wanting them to be. Kevin George has been an unhappy with Kedco in the past. Jeff has indicated that he and Kevin have had meetings and now are on the same path.

For these reasons only, I am very encouraged with Kedco. You cannot change what you won't acknowledge. Jeff and Mark have done just that by acknowledging things that they want to change. and indicating thing they are changing. . Lets give them the break that the other representatives didn't deserve. These two men do deserve a break. Let us give them the chance one more last time.

Ill even put my money where my mouth is. I will help and support them in anyway I can.

[Pookster]

Thanks for the answer, gives one something to think about.

[jim_collins]

I'm recently moved to Kingston from Kithener Waterloo, to join Novelis. Having lived in KW for 4 years - I was very familiar with their equivalent of KEDCO, sitting on one of their advisory boards. I must say i am stunned to see both the level of investment and the apathy for results realized by KEDCO within the community.

So i have some questions

Has it always been this way?

In talking with a few individuals they have said that KEDCO landed some big companies a few years ago and seemed to be doing pretty well for the community - In my conversations with Kingstonians I've heard that KEDCO brought Startek, Assurant and sold a bunch of city-owned land to growing and new small companies.


What happened?
Why the huge budget relative to other communities?
What are they doing differently, as opposed to what they were doing when they were successful?
How did things get so off track?

I've also read and heard, that the CEO responsible for the budget increase and the previous success was strongly disliked by some.

Have things improved since he was fired?

I'm thinking of approaching KEDCO to volunteer but don't want to join sinking ship, beyond the point of no return.

[Valley]

Hi Jim,

Welcome to Kingston Electors.

The KEDCO situation is complex and goes back many years. Staff turmoil and curious changes in direction seemed to have plagued the organization since its beginning.

Recently they have take some steps in what seems like the right direction - more enouragement of local business, better communications and reaching out to the larger community to listen and help with both social and economic issues.

It will be up to the next City Council to be elected in November to decide its fate.

[Lydia]

Hi Jim and Valley

I probably was one of the people on the Kingston Electors site that wanted Kedco GONE. ( More than anyone on here)

I never liked how Kedco didn't reach out to the ordinary small business owner. I always felt that Kedco's dealing with business development had more to do with political players than the business owners themselves.

HOWEVER,
I have met the current executive and find that Jeffery Garrah and Mark Hanley have shown me that things have INDEED changed. For starters they are developing a networking opportunity for businesses. They are advertising an Entrepreneurship Expo on Marcy 3, 2006 at the Donold Gordon Centre from 9:00 am. to 4:00 p.m. in our local newspapers.

I indicated on a previous note the 15-17 questions i piled on them and that they satisfied me with their answers that they have indeed changed.

Your experience with business development would go a LONG way in helping develop business opportunities. I AM NOT LOOKING FOR EMPLOYMENT however I firmly believe in networking for the rest of my life.

People will ask why would you want to network if you are not looking for employment. My answer is that as A CUSTOMER you are also looking for the best business owners and service in your city.

I have indicated that I will try to help Kedco if they choose to ask me. I have previous experience in the GTA with networking groups. ConnectusCanada, Entranet Networking in Brampton, Brampton Executive Networking Group, and HAPPEN Networking group in Oakville.

Back to your question, Yes you just might find it useful to assist.

[jim_collins]

Some very interesting insight.

I'll be frank and this is clearly my bias from my previous experience - the most successful economic development organizations in Canada and the U.S are 80% focused on the outside world and 20% focused on local business (of which a portion is small business).

The reality is that the an organization can have a greater impact and realize more significant results through a focus outside the community. This is not so say that local growth, entrepreneurship aren't important, but a signficant investment won't make a material change. Most of this growth will happen anyways.

An external focus, attracting new business and promoting local ones outside the community will serve to grow the Kingston pie. A local focus drives a dividing up the pie differently.

This of course brings up the inherent challenge of economic development in that the constituents that pay for it want the split to be the other way, the reality is that such an approach will not ensure a community reaches its potential.

Appeasing to the constituents however is the smart political move. And the organization seems to be very politically savy.

Just my two cents. I'm still going to approach the General Manager.

[Lydia]

I agree with you Jim
Kingston's business development opportunities MUST be linked with the global economy in order to be viable, whether we like it or not.

Diane Francis, an Editior of Financial Post, was very aware of this fact during the 1980s. She original worked as an Editor for a Brampton Newspaper and proceded up the ladder to become a very important person in the Financial world. I had an opportunity to met her at a HAPPEN Networking Session and was very impressed with her personality.

I found that for business to truly grow and create INDUSTRY that they had to start locally, proceed nationally, and then branch out internationally. What I want Kedco to do is to encourage people in this city to truly KNOW who the players are in all phases of development.

I think you will enjoy meeting with the General Manager. Please let us know your experiences with Kedco. With your experiences, you will be able to truly see aspects that the ordinary person, like myself, would not be able to notice. Hopefully, my feeling about Kedco will prove correct and if not I certain would want to know.

[macphail]

One of the big challenges in order for economic development of any type to be successful is the relationship between economic development and planning.

Communications between the two, based on what I have heard, is not optimal, that is to say, there is work that needs to be done.

This isn't the fault of KEDCO from what I gather, but rather due to turnover in the City's planning department and the fact that planning bylaws have not been completed since the amalgamation so many moons ago.

Moving forward, I think that the City must decide whether or not funding an outside agency is the best way to undertake economic development.

If KEDCO were to not receive funding from the City, what would happen? Would KEDCO still continue doing what it has always done, finding savings by reducing overhead, cutting staff/salaries, and engaging in fewer activities?

Would the money the City contributes to KEDCO be better spent by sprinkling it around to fund different economic development related projects that are spearheaded by municipal committees?

Or should the process be brought in-house with a department that bridges planning with economic development and tied to an overall strategy?

I think there are a few different options if the politicians are willing to have a frank discussion that includes input from the public, outside agencies, and KEDCO.

Cheers, Derek

[Lydia]

Input from the public, outside agencies, and KEDCO.


Exactly Derek, All three are necessary and CAN WORK TOGETHER and actually do in the GTA. This is done by way of the Self Help Networking groups that can be created with Kedco's help.

Originally, the Agencies were reluctant to help (Drake, Office Overload, Kelly, etc) As time when on these Agencies realized that the professionals that were looking for positions were at the Self-Help Groups. They never lost the contracts and realized that they could fill the positions quicker by find the employee quicker.

When you realize that 80% of all positions come as a result of verbal referals or notices than you realize how valuable these groups can become.

Yes the Agencies screen the potential employees however these Agencies also have to FIND the potential employees. Where can they find the people they need? Of course, at the Self Help groups trying to help each other.

Kedco can arrange for Expos, Career Fairs, Introductions, Mentoring,
Agencies can arrange for Screening, Contracts,
Self Help Groups can Introduce potentional Employeers to Employees, Teach each other about other fields of employment, Let other people know about jobs that they found for other people, Validate their own worth and respect.

[Evelyn King]

:mad: First I would like to welcome Jim to the Kingston Electors site and I hope you are enjoying living in Kingston.

All the points that everyone has made may be valid, but the tune being played by KEDCO we have all heard before.

I am sorry, but they received 6.9 million dollars over the past three years and how has the community benefitted???? I really resent tax payers dollars being used this way.

The old funding model for KEDCO was originally around $800,000.00 ( I think)
one might want to compare what we got back then for that amount and what we currently have. Enough is enough I say!!!!!

Best regards to all,

Evelyn King

[Lydia]

I understand where you are coming from here Evelyn and you are correct for your views. The proof will be in the pudding, when Kedco shows us what their plans are going to be.

I firmly believe because of our new CAO that things may change for the best. We just might be pleasantly surprised.

[jim_collins]

Well - I've done as suggested and spoken with KEDCO.

I'm not confident, they seem to have a complete lack of vision or strategy for Kingston or semblance of what it will actually take to do the job of economic development. In being familiar with several economic development organizations and their managers in my career (both smaller and larger cities than Kingston) - i must say i'm very dissappointed

In a conversation with an individual close to the organization, I'm wasn't surprised to hear that there seems to be no one in senior management of the organization with any economic development experience (including the board).

In the end I've decided to wait a while before getting involved. I don't believe this current situation can last very long. This may be my ignorance and optimsim (being new to Kingston) but the only reason i can see why this organization is still getting all this money is to maintain a 'budgetary slush fund' for the LVEC budget. I don't believe it is possible for a board comprised of 11 respected members of the community (perhaps an assumption here) to not recognize that this organization just isn't working. If they don't soon, I think they should be the next to be fired.

I think a year from now the organization will be under new management with a vastly trimmed down budget and I'll take another look at getting more involved. I'd also expect more networking, community events, group hugs, community consultation and a new plan to create the illusion of progress and activity. Although I couldn't get a straight answer out of KEDCO, the measurement for KEDCO is or will likely be how busy they appear to be rather than how many jobs they facilitate the creation of.

On the good side - we can all breathe a sigh of relief, i wouldn't expect any growth in Kingston in the next few years that will result in any increased traffic, parking problems, or ungodly construction of commercial buildings.

I appreciate everyone's input and insight. I've learned a lot about this town in the process.

[Florence]

There are global and national trends bearing down on Kingston within which Kedco must work:

-the rising Canadian dollar which is discouraging local investment
- the centripetal force of the magalopolis - Toronto which is drawing commerce into that centre

It is all very well to compare Kingston to Kithchener Waterloo but they are in the Toronto vortex. We are not. What can economic development in Kingston hope to achieve?


My suspicion is - given my feminist background- is to say -be ourselves. They will find us. Is that too simplistic?

[Lydia]

Thanks Jim for your input.

Trust me it was a lot worse before. Thank you for your informed input. You have pointed out a very interesting concept about slush fund and budgets.

Compared to what Kedco was 5 years ago and now there is a hugh improvement. It will prove interesting to see how they measure up in the coming months.

My experience about Economic Development stems from organizations such as Connectus Canada. www.connectuscanada.com Look it up and let me know what you think about this group.

[Evelyn King]

Jim:

Thanks so much for your information and the time you spent meeting with KEDCO.

Something else that has been bothersome to me, is the fact that the Mayor and two council members also sit on the Board of KEDCO. Can they not see or are they prudently watching how tax payers dollars are being used by KEDCO??

During budget talks in the fall will be telling. Hopefully in the time left, KEDCO can make some inroads because if they haven't, I am afraid they will be up the creek without the proverbial paddle.

Best regards to all,

Evelyn

[SLN]

I've applied for jobs at KEDCO and not been granted an interview. This in spite of the fact that before they even advertised for their openings I had written them a letter detailing my passions, experience, education and willingness and desire to work for them. Thus, when an opening for a tourism promoter came up I thought I would at LEAST be granted an opportunity to meet with them. The other position I applied for was Town-Gown relations - just a summer job.. and since I'm a graduate of both Queen's and St. Lawrence I thought I'd have a chance.
But no.

KEDCO could reach out to the business community, but somehow they just don't. I believe there are preconceptions in place at that organization that stop them from being pro-active. I would be creative and spirited and I could do it for far less money than they require. Even their web-site, which seems to have been redesigned lately is not friendly for the potential investor. Stats that are relied upon for site selection are hard to find or they have been removed. (the other day I wanted to discern Kingston's unemployment rate but couldn't find it there. Outrageous.. this should be easy to find on an economic development promoter's website.)

anyway.. just my two cents. I can envision outside money coming from myriad sources. I wonder why it isn't?

[Lydia]

I find it very interesting that you are a graduate of both Queen's and St. Lawrence and still can not find a position here in Kingston. The reason I find it interesting is because at the Kedco Expo that they had about a week or so ago the Lady from there that was on the panel actually spoke about people being able to go the Queens and obtain job postings.

This is the kind of stuff that Kedco should be looking into for sure. My own adult children have seen and obtained positions at York University, Senaca College and I obtained postings at Sheridan College myself.

SLN, Derek MacPhail has resigned his position at Humane Society, Speak with him or send him an e-mail on here and ask him what he thinks about the positions there. The position may not be suitable to him at this time in his life but it might be suitable for someone like yourself.

I do think that if Derek left the position, then it might not be all that great a position, however, i don't really know.

I'm a graduate of both Queen's and St. Lawrence I thought I'd have a chance.

[jim_collins]

There is no doubt that there are a number of external factors that are contributing to Kingston's challenges. In my personal opinion, 6 months in, Kingston's biggest challenge are internal issues. The fact that Queen's isn't a greater generator of economic activity is a travesty, one only needs to look at university such as Western, Wilfred Laurier, Waterloo, Guelph - all have much bigger roles in the industries in their communities.

Kingston is interested in preserving its identity, 'being ourselves'. This is very good, this is the reason I and many of my fellow Queen's alum think so fondly of Kingston and would love to live here. However in my opinion the community is forever doomed to the 'what might have been'.

As for how things used to be, i am very confused by this. I speak with people about KEDCO 3-4 years ago and i hear three things, lots of jobs (call centre, biotech, manufacturing, distribution), development of industrial lands and a CEO that was disliked and ran out of town. In contrast now it seems that there are no new jobs, no new investment in industrial lands, lots of community events and a general manager that is liked by many but clearly somebodies lap dog (i haven't figured out who yet).

I dare ask the question, which scenario is going to lead to lower taxes, greater services, investment in long overdue infrastructure.

As for ConnectUs - seems very intersesting and like a very effective networking medium. I'm of the opinion however that networking is necessary but not sufficient for economic development. It is but one of the many tools that are required to attract investment, expedite growth and encourage entrepreneurship. The role of economic development is to provide the foundation and infrastructure so that networking organizations such as connectus, the chamber can be more effective and actually take action of the opportunities identified.

My two cents for the day.

[Lydia]

Jim, What you said here is worth $2,000,000.00 Not $0.02. May I say you are exactly what Kedco needs to help them out.

At least now we have a CAO who is great in my mind, I do think Jeffrey Garrah is doing his best and so is Mark Hannel. They can only work with what they were allowed to work with.

Queens should be more involved with creating Industry. Keep in mind that the residents in this city are fearful of Queens. The relationship between Queens and the citizens has not be very cooperative.

Being new here (6 years) I don't know the history of their relationship. I have a feeling that Queens is trying to develop a relationship but the community is still very untrusting of them.

[Exhibitionist]

Here is my limited opinion from the readings, doing business here/ union culture / strategic planning / Historic reality -

1) Kingston is centrally "isolated". - good for distribution networks (trucking) between large Cities.

2) Culture of a union workforce - institutional in nature. (Business dread these types of cultures to setup shop in)

3) Historically (King news clothes) - KEDCO promises, revitalisation, innovative...city. - I think Kingston is fooling itself.

4) Toronto - is better positioned - for new imerging / existing business

5) Kingston - focus has been on tourism, not medium sized manufatcuring

6) Global competition

7) Kingston (19th century thinking) - "First Capital" - "special status" - (probable ONLY good for tourism) - but this mentality - blinds them of 21st century realities/responsibilities.

8) Queens - (a VERY small University) - is not Waterloo, etc. - or involved in I.T, RIM business etc.

Queens - main (known for) academics are: Medicine, Law and "recently" MBA program. It is NOT a well known University!

From one who knows - Harvard & Cambridge - do not even know Queens.

Infact they look only at McGill as one they would even maybe deal with.

Queens University is known only in Canada - which is one of the smallest countries per capita in the world.

The world looks at us GDP etc. "as a pimple on the behind of a Elephant." - Nice people but we still live in igloos in the worlds perspective!

Jim - I would highly suggest - you do NOT approach KEDCO or seek any involvement beyond "mentoring" as a volunteer.

I fully expect KEDCO NOT to be in its current form to much longer. (I would not wish any newcomer to nievely fall into that organisation.)

[Lydia]

Jim,

*************'s attitude certain conveys a spirit of cooperation. Thank God other people are not as cooperative and encouraging as ************* is.

If you except crap you usually get crap. I personally expect Kedco to become proactive and It is nice to see that Kedco is trying help our students from Queens and St. Lawrence College start businesses. This is a first step as far as i am concerned.

Yes they need to do exactly what you suggested earlier. They have a long way to go but I see improvement by their acknowledging their mistakes. You can't fix what you don't acknowledge and I seem them moving towards that.

[milambercan]

************* is wrong on global competition since it only takes a computer and a network to compete in todays industries. As far as the rest of his statement I tend to agree. First Capital only means something locally. Most Americans don't know where Canada is much less care. Those that do have an idea of where it might be do in fact believe that we live in igloos and go underground in the summer. Queen's does not have the reputation of Guelph or of U of T. Kingston's only claim is Fort Henry and noone wants to help repair it.

[Exhibitionist]

Kingston is a regional centre.

It is a "Government Town".

The majority of (working years) persons either work for Government agencies or receive benefits, monies or business from Government institutions.i.e Queens, RMC, Corrections Canada, Revenue Canada etc.

Kingston is the second most popular location for retirement in the country.

It is also a University "town". (migrating 20,000 /located here - only 6 months out of the year)

Most of the businesses in Kingston are very small and are retail/or service industry/related. (minimum wage)

There are only two (2) medium sized business left in Kingston that will likely stay for the long term.
- Invista (formally Dupont) and Novelis (formally Alcan)

The largest employer here is RMC. (migration high)

Global Competition does not mean (all you need is a computer to be anywhere to create meaniful, medium to large business.)

Maybe for 1 man bands - but does NOT create "viable /significant business that contribute to the communities needs." i.e (in terms of "local" procurement of goods/services, local "good" high paying employment, and local corporate taxation base for the City, and large and consistent support for our charitable community)

One person starting a "business" takes years to even make any money. Anywhere! And most fail within 3-5 years.

Example: of true globalization -

Domtar - in Cornwall. Is now closed. 2000 people in a town are now unemployed. The town will be struggling to keep their downtown retail, small to medium business and taxation requirement afloat. - They are in a lot of trouble.

The production facility as indicated in the (Purchasing b2b March 2006 edition) - confirms that the plants production will be moved to Shouguang, China.

Domtar's reason for closing the plant "a challenge of the high Canadian dollar and lack of demand in the world markets."

Now the union and employees have found out - "the market is vibrant and is being supplied by the mill in Shouguang, China." - says Cec Makoski, Ontario Regional Vice President.

Kingston - has already seen this happen to them....

- Bombardier, Norcom, Bell, Ministry of Transportation, - Belleville also: Parmalot, Food Service International, Sears.../ Gann. - same thing and Brockville - SLN computer parts, Brockvilles Hospital just threw out a bunch of nurses.. - and U.S just bought some huge playerss in Ottawa and Kingston. (Manufacturing jobs that will be slowly pulled south)

Significant "good paying", good employers - with good spinoffs - in the region. GONE!!!!!!

And it will not stop here.

I guarrantee Kingston has not seen the last of this. (And you want Jeffrey Lowe ????)

Cost saving, competition from global players, even Bombardier has plants in China now supplying parts that- we in Canada use to make!

This is serious stuff. (for the ones that need to work) Not so much for the retirees group.

As Jim Collins says: networking is one thing - but if there is no foundation, no industry or good business to build from - all the wishing or coffe and cake meetings (mean little) to the working folks or the ones forced to move to T.O.

The Global economies are also grouping into Mega industrial and service groups. Where? The largest cities! Why because they have the infastructure, historical innovative industries, supply chains locally, and experience skilled workers on a massive scale - to compete with tighter and tighter margins.

China and India are perfect examples. Chinas banking system is iffy, and India infastructure is iffy. But, in 10 years they both (I am beating on India) will be the dominate manufacturing/service base in the world. And manufacturing usually means "better long term investment and steady local paid work".

Service industry -can be moved with a push of a button. Look at Bell! Startek!

Kingston does have some anchors - Government - but they are lossing the industrial tax base ...and I can guarrantee unless you get more "viable larger businesses" here - you are looking at high residential taxes, poor infastructure and a maginalised / and diing retirement community!

So, I would suggest you really look at the realities of the 21st Century.

For Kingston and the centres regionally situated, and the effects "globalization" WILL HAVE AND IS HAVING!!!!

Don't just look to the end of ones nose.

There is Globalization - that will squish you like a bug! With or without a dream.

[jim_collins]

*************.

I'm intriqued by your reply. Mostly because of its ignorance. In my first few months in Kingston I've encountered many Kingstonians that have had similar beliefs of their local economy. The strange this is, they were very incongruent with my perception as an outsider so i did a little research - many of your statements couldn't be further from the truth.

Kingston has the 2nd lowest union workforce rate amoungst the private sector amoungst Ontario's 10 largest cities (toronto is the lowest)

Queen's is actually one of the larger research universities in Canada (outside of U of Toronto, University of Western and University of British Columbia). It is classified as a research university rather than as an academic university.

Queen's has the most effective and successful technology transfer program amoungst Canadian universities. PARTEQ Innovations

Queen's is known for a great deal of research in Life Sciences, increasingly Alternative Energy. Much to my surprise I hear Queen's and Kingston has more research than anywhere else in Canada other than Vancouver.

Queen's Law School is one of the least reputable aspects of the school and has been for over a decade. This is a very commonly known fact.

Biggest misconception about Kitchener Waterloo is that its a technology town - the manufacturing and insurance sector are far bigger. No doubt Waterloo has a very strong IT program - not much else however.

The biggest difference between Waterloo and Kingston is it's people. There is very much a can-do and opportunistic attitude in Waterloo. Kingston seems to be filled with very negative people, that are often very misinformed. I find it odd that someone lives in a community that they seem to believe its future is so bleak - i've never witnessed it on the level I have in Kingston.

Everyday businesses make location decisions that don't involve locating in Toronto. A fundamental piece of a business making a location decision is the cost of doing business (very high in Toronto) and the ability to find the talent and keep it. The reality is, most people that live in Toronto would rather not pay $1 M for a 3 bedroom home or spend an hour commuting in traffic.

As the economy becomes more global the need to be in a large city is diminished, however access to the world through transportation is.

Every university in Canada is only known in Canada. McGill is only known because of its sister relationship with Princeton, (not Harvard) and not very well known. As a former student at Queen's I can say that with out a doubt say there are a lot of programs and partneships with large US schools including Ivy league. That was in the mid 90s, i'd be surprised it hasn't increased with an American Principal.

Education and Health are the largest employment sectors in Kingston,
Government is a distant 3rd.

RMC is not the largest employer, it is actually not in the top 20.

CFB Kingston is the largest employer, fastest growing, largest payroll and largest taxpayer - not as transient at RMC apparently.

Startek is the largest private sector employer and apparently has the largest payroll amoungst the private sector (seems they aren't paying minimum wage.)

A quick look at the business stats on Kingston reveals that the number of small and medium size busienss vs. large business is similar to the national average.

The service economy is large in kingston as a total percentage, and higher than the national average but not by much.

Small Business and entrepreneurship is the engine of Canada's economy. It is where most growth in GDP comes from and where a large percentage of jobs are created. One can't have a well thought out policy for job growth without a meaningful focus on small business and entrepreneurs. Look at this website for some local entrepreneur success stories www.win50k.ca (http://www.win50k.ca) - i guarantee there are not many people in those companies making minimum wage.

Manufacturing is low in kingston relative to the national average. hence the relative insulation from the move to global outsourcing. Not to say it won't happen but the low-cost, little value stuff goes first. Kingston has a a couple years to get its act together and hopefully the dollar will weaken.

I do AGREE with your assessment on the tax base, however your focus on large business doesn't make sense given yours arguement regarding globalization.

The very sad thing about KEDCO (topic of this thread) is that they seem to be completely oblivious to these trends with a focus on manufacturing, talk to their board chair - they are very focused on manufacturing.

Kingston's greatest resources is its very talented workforce (apparently amoungst the most talented per capita in Canada accoding to KEDCO studies). If you want to grow Kingston's economy one can't focus on manufacturing (hence the lack of success KEDCO has had in this area) you must focus on talent related industries; health, life sciences, education, technology, private defence industries etc. Such jobs will always remain in Canada and can and will be done from anywhere by talented people that I believe value the lifestyle that Kingston offers. That is the reason I decided to move to Kingston to start my family. And I have no doubt that many Torontians would take 30 - 50K pay cuts to live and work in Kingston. I have.

No doubt things are looking bleak for Belleville and Cornwall. The nice thing is that Kingston isn't Belleville or Cornwall, its economy is quite different and far more talent based. The are only three things that seperate Kingston from these cities, 3 Postsecondary Institutions, Tourism and CFB Kingston. Wouldn't it make sense to focus on these advantages.

The unfortunate thing is that this advantage is lost on the cities leaders and clearly amoungst some of its misinformed citizens.

In the future I suggest you inform yourself before perpetuating some of Kingstons most commonly held MYTHs.

The more widespread these MYTHs become the more detrimental they are to business investing in the city.

[Lydia]

Jim, Thank you for your input on the Economic Realities of Kingston. You are 110% correct it is very refreshing to know that someone like you is here. I mentioned to Kedco representatives that I would love to know and learn about INDUSTRIES that are here AND If we don't have any LETS CREATE THEM. Kingston's ONLY downfall is negativity. Period.

I firmly believe that you would be the best asset that is here in this city because of your beliefs, education and attitude towards this city.

One thing that I would like to mention on behalf of the University of Waterloo. It also has a heck of a good Science program even if it does deal with Chemistry Industries. My son did go there for a year and find it very difficult and dropped out, he was taking Sciences there. However he was a Quality Assurance Engineer for People Soft which has been bought out now and took up Computer Science instead.

[Exhibitionist]

Jim - I respect your fresh perspective and "optimistic outlook" with regards to your new home - "Eastern Ontario" moving forward.

But; unfortunately you are completely contradictive of the evidence at hand. And
have "no experience" in this area - either in establishing a business nor community service.

Please refer to (both) todays Whig Standard Article on (Kingstons) Economic Outlook (particularly in the area of migration / employment growth / population growth)

Included is a recent Government economic study of the region. That infactically contradicts most of your "limited research" in this matter.


The of the GTA comprised of the City of Toronto and the regional municipalities of Durham, Halton, Peel and York will be by far the fastest growing region – 50% of the province by 2031. Through the rest of the province certains area will experience more growth than their respective region. The population of Central Ontario will remain essentially unchanged but Simcoe, Dufferin, Wellington and Waterloo will experience greater growth. Eastern Ontario, with the exception of Ottawa, will experience growth below the provincial average. Essex will be the fastest growing area in southwestern Ontario. The population in Northern Ontario will continue it downward decline reflecting Northern Ontario recent migration trends and age structure. Parry Sound will be the exception for growth in the north.

My point - you suggest is that Toronto a city/business "region" of 5 million is not and will be not be a major (regional) economic development area / competition at a 50/1 ratio in terms of established businesses.

i.e the largest manufacturing sector in the country, largesty service, tourism, IT, biochemistry, entertainment, health services/ education institutions, Universities, Colleges, Government Agencies, largest libraries (data base) in the world and MOST OF THE HEAD OFFICES in the country - ALL within 1 hour of each other linked.

Along with the "golden horseshoe" AND a border CITY (that can serve ANY business or Government need professionally, quickly, efficiently, INTERNATIONALLY) and also beside the US market! - thus the busiest border crossing in the COUNTRY. Even Honda, Toyota who are building modest plants hear do it within 1 hour of Toronto!

You are business, economically & historically - unfortunately incorrect.

Your point that "businesses" (now and in the future) do not "set up shop" in large cities and prefer more "cottage type" lifestyles rather than being closer to their guarrantee markets and already MANY established services, suppliers for (JIT) is also not the trend.

Maybe for the retirees - but NOT BUSINESS World trends.

Just look at ALL the largest Cities in the World. Their employment is much lower, their GDP is much higher and their percentage of output or "productivity" is much higher.

Due to the following "basic economic principles": a varied & available skilled workforce, good infastructure, Globally respected business "centres" of the region/country, also the largest market and international transportation hubs for the movement and establishment of global capital - for large capital investment, tourism and education, training and business experience.

Queens is also not a LARGE research "centre". It is also NOT a research centre that has lead to many industries (in Kingston). In fact; I would argue that (it has) more an academic & retail support "presence" in Kingston.

i.e The 500 million dollar (wind farm) on Wolfe Island - was NOT researched, derived, funded or marketed by Queens in any way shape or form!

Fact: Canada as a whole spends 1/10 the amount on research AND DEVELOPMENT than Germany, Japan. US and or Korea etc. And historically so.

We maybe "known" for some "research in Health Sciences" - but thats as far as it usually goes. No development! The other (s) actually develop it and sell it.

Jim - Banting and Best were a long time ago.

Canadians also seem to bring along businesses and then sell them for short term gain. i.e Tim Hortons. Spar Aero Space, Steel Companies, food companies...I am sure the banks would also if they could!

Look at the big names NOW: Phiser, IBM, VW, GM, KIA, Toyota, XIA, Bayer, Exxon Mobil, Walmart, Nokia, Tyco, Honda..etc.....

You know that the auto companies are in fact the ones that actually "innovate" and generate, support - most of the economy and sub tier companies (i.e suppliers, manufactures etc, & research!!!) - more than any the Canadian Universities combined.

Tourism is the largest industry in the world. Kingston has just recently developed this.

Unfortunately; they do not actually deliver "good paying jobs" that actually "make" or engineer something that we can sell during down trends or challeging issues.

Waterloo - I did go to. Its is and Guelph in particular was and is "rural" in nature. It has changed abit and spe******es in IT and more so for the Phd program - World (Centre) in innovation (basically Phd's in **** subjects - studing what they want / with money). And I totally agree the manufacturing and insurance (london life) is far larger in such a small population. Although it needs to be said (these places are MUCH closer to Toronto's golden horse shoe than Kingston (centrally isolated) experience.

Kingstons manufacturing on average is lower and small. Beleville has better and larger facilities than we do. Cornwall also has lost 2000 jobs @ Domtar that will affect Kingston.

Kingstons "service" sector is higher. And service pays LOWER. And is also threatened by issues such as the high Canadian dollar, border passports now and poverty issues in its "historical downtown". The leasing of retail fottage here is incredably high!

Correct -Jim - CFB Kingston is Kingstons largest employer. Sorry typo. 5000 people are employed. (Government Employer)


Education and Health are the largest employment sectors in Kingston,
Government is a distant 3rd. -

Jim - you are also right - but who do you you think the latter EMPLOYERS are - Government right!

And ALL are unionized.



Startek is the largest private sector employer and apparently has the largest payroll amoungst the private sector (seems they aren't paying minimum wage.)

They are VERY recent. And are American. The money goes south.

And they can "unplug" and move to India in a heart beat. They also use mostly marginalised "uneducated" employees making mostly $ 10.00- 12.00 an hour.

If they last through the robotic job objectives..in those telephone sweat shops!


Kingston's greatest resources is its very talented workforce

Most of them leave for the lights & opportunities of the big cities! Just like you did.



Small Business and entrepreneurship is the engine of Canada's economy.

Ya sure - (infact: I am one) BUT it takes years to (make a living) after years of investments in capital, marketing - (and if you are a experienced business person) - especially in Kingston (a town).

And infact; the rest of the world is doing the same thing! So what? And I am afraid you need more than a computer! To make a true living.

Most people here will not and really do NOT have the money or more importantly (the support) from KEDCO and business resources (Government/UNION town historically) or the market population thus the "fire in their belly" to be an entrepenuer is in T.O.

Note: almost 20% of the Kingston population are single mothers/kids with spouses in jail. Where are they going to get extra income? Get real. Entrepenuer in Kingston is media hype. We need to replace the medium and large companies that have left with good paying jobs - NOT Starteck!

WE just kicked out the last KEDCO CEO for bringing - Starteck and Bell (who just left).


No doubt things are looking bleak for Belleville and Cornwall. The nice thing is that Kingston isn't Belleville or Cornwall, its economy is quite different and far more talent based. The are only three things that seperate Kingston from these cities, 3 Postsecondary Institutions, Tourism and CFB Kingston. Wouldn't it make sense to focus on these advantages.

1) Talent or educated person(s) leave for more opportunity in the larger cities!

2) Beleville is an important regional supplier, business for Kingston suppliers, retailers etc.

3) Kingston IS a Government Town, Unionised town - with tourism as its largest service "industry".

The latter especially Belleville has historically been a much better business friendlt town. It is also more diversified.

But, unfortunately/fortunately for us we have Government institutions.

BUT -

Again - Bombardier, Norcom, Bell, Domtar, Hotel Dieu almost went, SLM, Dupont (almost gone), Ministry of Transportation GONE - ..Alcan cut by 90%!

And yes - we need to attract and be ready for large companies, medium companies and private smaller companies (no matter what)

Jim - please....you have not been here very long. Believe me - Kingston is NOT doing well since the 1990's. (Harris Govenment and all)

And as the forecasts suggest - not for the next 5 years.

Thats almost 17 years of decline!

Thats not "normal" for Kingston - thus the negativity in your population.

And I am 110 % right on that one!

I really do appreciate your opinions Jim. I think your heart is in the right place. And that you could in future be an asset to this community. (Well needed fresh air) Not hot air.

But, stay away from volunteering at KEDCO (for now)

I just want to let you know from my perspective of what "really" are the challenges that Kingston has. And yes - it is a nice place to live (one of the nicest but only if we have ("good paying work") in the future - FOR ALL who need it.

Enjoy your stay.

Best Regards.

[jim_collins]

SEE MY REPLY IN CAPS

Jim - I respect your fresh perspective and "optimistic outlook" with regards to your new home - "Eastern Ontario" moving forward.

But; unfortunately you are completely contradictive of the evidence at hand. And have "no experience" in this area - either in establishing a business nor community service.

APPRECIATE YOUR HOSPITALITY, I MAY NOT BE FROM THIS REGION BUT I BELIEF THIS FRESH PERSPECTIVE, PROVIDES AN OPPORTUNITY TO SEE KINGSTON FOR WHAT IT IS, NOT WHAT IT HAS HISTORICALLY BEEN. I CARRY NO BAGGAGE OR PRECONCIEVED NOTIONS.

Please refer to (both) todays Whig Standard Article on (Kingstons) Economic Outlook (particularly in the area of migration / employment growth / population growth)

Included is a recent Government economic study of the region. That infactically contradicts most of your "limited research" in this matter.


Quote:
The of the GTA comprised of the City of Toronto and the regional municipalities of Durham, Halton, Peel and York will be by far the fastest growing region – 50% of the province by 2031. Through the rest of the province certains area will experience more growth than their respective region. The population of Central Ontario will remain essentially unchanged but Simcoe, Dufferin, Wellington and Waterloo will experience greater growth. Eastern Ontario, with the exception of Ottawa, will experience growth below the provincial average. Essex will be the fastest growing area in southwestern Ontario. The population in Northern Ontario will continue it downward decline reflecting Northern Ontario recent migration trends and age structure. Parry Sound will be the exception for growth in the north.
OBVIOUSLY - AT NO POINT DID I SUGGEST THAT KINGSTON'S GROWTH WOULD OUTPACE THAT OF TORONTO.

My point - you suggest is that Toronto a city/business "region" of 5 million is not and will be not be a major (regional) economic development area / competition at a 50/1 ratio in terms of established businesses.

AT NO POINT DO I SUGGEST THIS. I DO SUGGEST THAT BUSINESS DO CHOOSE TO NOT LOCATE IN TORONTO. IN MY FORMER ROLE WORKING WITH THE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IN WATERLOO, OUR COMPETITION FOR MANUFACTURING, INSURANCE AND TECHNOLOGY WAS NOT JUST TORONTO BUT OTHER COMMUNITIES SUCH AS LONDON, WINDSOR, OTTAWA, TORONTO, KINGSTON AND BELLEVILLE.


Along with the "golden horseshoe" AND a border CITY (that can serve ANY business or Government need professionally, quickly, efficiently, INTERNATIONALLY) and also beside the US market! - thus the busiest border crossing in the COUNTRY. Even Honda, Toyota who are building modest plants hear do it within 1 hour of Toronto!

ANOTHER ARGUEMENT TO NOT FOCUS ON MANUFACTURING. KINGSTON HAS NO STRENGTH RELATIVE TO THESE CITIES.

Your point that "businesses" (now and in the future) do not "set up shop" in large cities and prefer more "cottage type" lifestyles rather than being closer to their guarrantee markets and already MANY established services, suppliers for (JIT) is also not the trend.

I DID NOT MEAN TO IMPLOY THAT ALL BUSINESS TAKE THIS ROUTE. ONE ONLY NEEDS TO LOOK AT THE INDUSTRIAL PARKS IN KINGSTON, THOSE THAT EXPORT AROUND THE WORLD AND ASK THE QUESTION, WHY HAVEN'T THEY MOVED, WHY DO COMPANIES LIKE STARTEK (from Denver), ASSURANT (from Toronto), LYRECO (Montreal and Toronto).

Maybe for the retirees - but NOT BUSINESS World trends.

Just look at ALL the largest Cities in the World. Their employment is much lower, their GDP is much higher and their percentage of output or "productivity" is much higher.

BIG CITIES = MORE OPPORTUNITIES THIS ISN'T NEWS, HOWEVER SMALLER COMMUNITIES DO HAVE OPPORTUNITIES, LOOK AT KITCHENER WATERLOO (managed to double in 20 years). KELOWNA, BC the fastet growing city in Canada.

Queens is also not a LARGE research "centre". It is also NOT a research centre that has lead to many industries (in Kingston). In fact; I would argue that (it has) more an academic & retail support "presence" in Kingston.

LOOK AT THE EXPENDITURES ON RESEARCH VS OTHER UNIVERSITIES AND THE PATENTS FILED. AS FOR THE COMPANIES, I'VE LIVED HEAR FOR 6 MONTHS AND CAN NAME 12 SMALL AND MEDIUM MILLION DOLLAR COMPANIES. HOW LONG HAVE YOU LIVED IN KINGSTON? YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF INFORMED?


Fact: Canada as a whole spends 1/10 the amount on research AND DEVELOPMENT than Germany, Japan. US and or Korea etc. And historically so.

AND ALTHOUGH I DON'T KNOW THIS FOR FACT BUT I WOULD HAZARD TO SAY THAT OUTSIDE OF OTTAWA AND MAYBE KITCHENER-WATERLOO, KINGSTON PROBABLY IS IN THE TOP 5 CANADIAN CITIES RESEARCH EXPENDITURES PER CAPITA. I'LL GET THIS STAT FOR YOU IF YOU LIKE

Waterloo - I did go to. Its is and Guelph in particular was and is "rural" in nature. It has changed abit and spe******es in IT and more so for the Phd program - World (Centre) in innovation (basically Phd's in **** subjects - studing what they want / with money). And I totally agree the manufacturing and insurance (london life) is far larger in such a small population. Although it needs to be said (these places are MUCH closer to Toronto's golden horse shoe than Kingston (centrally isolated) experience.

SO THE ENTIRE REASON FOR THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE TWO CITIES IS THE EXTRA 1.5 HOUR DRIVE?

Kingstons manufacturing on average is lower and small. Beleville has better and larger facilities than we do. Cornwall also has lost 2000 jobs @ Domtar that will affect Kingston.

Kingstons "service" sector is higher. And service pays LOWER. And is also threatened by issues such as the high Canadian dollar, border passports now and poverty issues in its "historical downtown". The leasing of retail fottage here is incredably high!

SERVICES DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN RESTAURANTS, CONSULTING, BANKING, LAWYERS, MOST TECHNOLOGY COMPANIES ARE ALL GROUPED IN THIS CATEGORY. THESE VALUE ADDED BUSINESSES ARE IN FACT A GREAT DEAL MORE SECURE FROM EXCHANGE RATE INFLATION. LEASING PRICES BEING HIGH IS ACTUALLY A SIGN OF DEMAND.

Correct -Jim - CFB Kingston is Kingstons largest employer. Sorry typo. 5000 people are employed. (Government Employer)


Quote:
Education and Health are the largest employment sectors in Kingston,
Government is a distant 3rd. -


Jim - you are also right - but who do you you think the latter EMPLOYERS are - Government right!

And ALL are unionized.

Quote:
Startek is the largest private sector employer and apparently has the largest payroll amoungst the private sector (seems they aren't paying minimum wage.)


They are VERY recent. And are American. The money goes south.

CORRECT THE PROFITS GO SOUTH - BUT THE $40 Million in payroll stays here in Kingston. Average wage is $14/hr

And they can "unplug" and move to India in a heart beat. They also use mostly marginalised "uneducated" employees making mostly $ 10.00- 12.00 an hour.

DID I MENTION THE $40 MILLION IN PAYROLL, I FIND IT INCREDIBLY STRANGE IN MOST COMMUNITIES WOULD FIGHT TO HAVE SUCH AN EMPLOYER, EVEN IF ONLY FOR A COUPLE YEARS. BUT SOME PEOPLE IN THIS TOWN SEEM TO TREAT THIS COMPANY AS SOME SECOND RATE EMPLOYER.



Quote:
Kingston's greatest resources is its very talented workforce


Most of them leave for the lights & opportunities of the big cities! Just like you did.

I JUMPED TO THE SAME ERRONEOUS CONCULSION, HOWEVER UPON LOOKING CLOSER AT THE KEDCO REPORT IT REVEALS THAT IT ONLY TRACKS PEOPLE THAT HOLD DEGREES. HENCE THE 16000 Undergrad Students aren't in this total. AGAIN SIMILAR TO THE STARTEK, I WOULD BET YOU THAT BELLEVILLE WOULD LOVE TO HAVE 20000 UNIVERSITY AND COLLEGE STUDENTS. I'D SAY TORONTO WOULD BE PRETTY HAPPY WITH ANOTHER 20000. BUT APPARENTLY TO YOU THIS IS A BAD THING, AND OFFERS NO OPPORTUNITY WHATSOEVER FOR KINGSTON TO CAPTALIZE UPON.


Quote:
Small Business and entrepreneurship is the engine of Canada's economy.


Ya sure - (infact: I am one) BUT it takes years to (make a living) after years of investments in capital, marketing - (and if you are a experienced business person) - especially in Kingston (a town).

YOUR BITTERNESS IS NOW UNDERSTOOD.

And infact; the rest of the world is doing the same thing! So what? And I am afraid you need more than a computer! To make a true living.

DON'T RECALL IMPLYING THAT IT JUST TOOK A COMPUTER, ANOTHER ASSUMPTION YOU JUMPED TO.

Most people here will not and really do NOT have the money or more importantly (the support) from KEDCO and business resources (Government/UNION town historically) or the market population thus the "fire in their belly" to be an entrepenuer is in T.O.

AT LAST WE AGREE I THINK PART OF IT IS THE VERY DEFEATIST ATTITUDE IN KINGSTON. KINGSTON ALSO DOESN'T CELEBRATE ITS ENTREPENEURS VERY WELL. I'VE BEEN AMAZED IN MY CASUAL MEETINGS AND ENCOUNTERS WITH "INFORMED" KINGSTONIANS ABOUT THE LACK OF AWARENESS OF BUSINESSES THAT HAVE STARTED AND MOVED HERE THAT ARE DOING VERY WELL. I DEVELOPED A THEORY ON WHY THIS IS. I THINK MOST KINGSTONIANS FORMALIZED THEIR PERCEPTIONS IN THE EARLY 90'S WHERE THE GOVERNMENT PRESENCE WAS AT ITS STRONGEST. SINCE THEN ALOT HAS CHANGED BUT THE BITTER AND UNINFORMED HAVE ASSUMED NOTHING HAS CHANGED.

Note: almost 20% of the Kingston population are single mothers/kids with spouses in jail. Where are they going to get extra income? Get real. Entrepenuer in Kingston is media hype. We need to replace the medium and large companies that have left with good paying jobs - NOT Starteck!

GET REAL - LARGE COMPANIES ARE NOT INVESTING IN CANADA OTHER THAN EXPANDING EXISTING FACILITIES. IF THIS COMMUNITY IS NOT STRONG ENOUGH FOR A SMALL OR MEDIUM SIZED COMPANY HOW ON EARTH DO YOU WITH YOUR YEARS OF BUSINESS AND COMMUNITY SERVICE IN KINGSTON EXPECT TO CONVINCE A LARGE COMPANY TO RELOCATE.

WE just kicked out the last KEDCO CEO for bringing - Starteck and Bell (who just left).

THIS IS AN ABSOLUTE SHAME - LIKELY MORE THAN $50M in PAYROLL AND YOU SUGGEST THAT THE CEO FAILED. I GUESS HE SHOULD HAVE FOCUSED ON THE AUTO INDUSTRY OR PULP AND PAPER. OSHAWA AND CORNWALL ARE HAPPY THEY BUT THEIR EGGS IN THOSE BASKETS.




Quote:
No doubt things are looking bleak for Belleville and Cornwall. The nice thing is that Kingston isn't Belleville or Cornwall, its economy is quite different and far more talent based. The are only three things that seperate Kingston from these cities, 3 Postsecondary Institutions, Tourism and CFB Kingston. Wouldn't it make sense to focus on these advantages.


1) Talent or educated person(s) leave for more opportunity in the larger cities!

SO EVERYONE IN KINGSTON IS WITHOUT TALENT AND CAN'T FIND ANY OPPORTUNITIES IN TORONTO ? HOW LONG HAVE YOU LIVED HERE?

2) Beleville is an important regional supplier, business for Kingston suppliers, retailers etc.

3) Kingston IS a Government Town, Unionised town - with tourism as its largest service "industry".

The latter especially Belleville has historically been a much better business friendlt town. It is also more diversified.

I DON'T KNOW BELLEVILE VERY WELL BUT I WOULD AGREE KINGSTON IS NOT THE MOST FRIENDLY CITY TO BUSINESS. ITS PEOPLE SEEM TO BE HIGHLY SUSPICIOUS OF DEVELOPMENT, AND EXTREMELY DEFEATIST. ITS CITIZENS DON'T THINK FONDLY OF THEIR CITY.

But, unfortunately/fortunately for us we have Government institutions.

BUT -

Again - Bombardier, Norcom, Bell, Domtar, Hotel Dieu almost went, SLM, Dupont (almost gone), Ministry of Transportation GONE - ..Alcan cut by 90%!

AND KINGSTON SHOULD HAVE FOCUSED ON LARGE MANUFACTURING RATHER THAN OUTSOURCING IN THE PAST AND OTHER BUSINESS SERVICES SUCH AS TECHNOLOGY AND KNOWLEDGE DRIVEN ENTERPRISES IN THE FUTURE.

NOT QUITE FOLLOWING YOUR LOGIC HERE?


And yes - we need to attract and be ready for large companies, medium companies and private smaller companies (no matter what)

Jim - please....you have not been here very long. Believe me - Kingston is NOT doing well since the 1990's. (Harris Govenment and all)

I HAVEN'T. I DON'T KNOW WHAT HAS TRANSPIRED. I DO HOWEVER SEE A GREAT DEAL OF POTENTIAL IN THIS COMMUNITY AND I THINK IF THE 90's WERE SO DIFFICULT TO KINGSTONIANS IT HAS LEFT MANY INCREDIBLY BITTER AND DISENFRANCHISED WITH THE FUTURE OF KINGSTON THAT THEY CAN NOT CLEARLY SEE THE OPPORTUNITIES THAT HAVE EVOLVED IN THAT TIME.

And as the forecasts suggest - not for the next 5 years.

I DO NOT CLAIM THAT KINGSTON IS GOING TO GROW. MY POINT IS THAT THERE IS OPPORTUNITY FOR THAT GROWTH BUT KINGSTONIANS AND KEDCO ARE MISSING THE BOAT.

Thats almost 17 years of decline!

Thats not "normal" for Kingston - thus the negativity in your population.

And I am 110 % right on that one!

I really do appreciate your opinions Jim. I think your heart is in the right place. And that you could in future be an asset to this community. (Well needed fresh air) Not hot air.

But, stay away from volunteering at KEDCO (for now)

I WILL AND APPRECIATE YOUR INPUT. THEY ARE NOT LIKELY TO BE SUCCESSFUL NOT FOR A LACK OF OPPORTUNITY BUT I HONESTLY DON'T THINK THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

I just want to let you know from my perspective of what "really" are the challenges that Kingston has. And yes - it is a nice place to live (one of the nicest but only if we have ("good paying work") in the future - FOR ALL who need it.

AGREED - AND I CAN GUARANTEE KINGSTON WOULD HAVE NO SHORTAGE OF TALENTED PEOPLE THAT WOULD RELOCATE TO KINGSTON FOR DECENT PAYING JOBS.

Enjoy your stay.

Best Regards.

[Exhibitionist]

Jim - I agree Kingston has a long way to go before it realises it has some potential. Unfortunately; the business people here are rather small world. Retail in particular here are mainly "home grown". Little business experience!

Waterloo and that general area have grown mostly from retires, location close to T.O and *****er housing..


SO THE ENTIRE REASON FOR THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE TWO CITIES IS THE EXTRA 1.5 HOUR DRIVE?

Jim - of course not. But, we are more isolated than Waterloo. Belleville is the same distance and look at its business. And has been for along time. It also has to do with its council and business mentality at City hall. Kingstons is rather -- stuck in that Sir John "A" lamenting..Government mode. As I said - before wish you have NOT replied it is a Government Town / Union Town. Innovation and business are only located at Queens. Queens is its own town anyways. Have you heard the term "Town and Gown" yet?



BIG CITIES = MORE OPPORTUNITIES THIS ISN'T NEWS, HOWEVER SMALLER COMMUNITIES DO HAVE OPPORTUNITIES, LOOK AT KITCHENER WATERLOO (managed to double in 20 years). KELOWNA, BC the fastet growing city in Canada.

Same with B.C - (who is #1 in retirement communities) just like us #2 they have the retirees coming in like never before. Not necessarily growth in terms of good paying jobs i.e manufacturing etc.



LOOK AT THE EXPENDITURES ON RESEARCH VS OTHER UNIVERSITIES AND THE PATENTS FILED. AS FOR THE COMPANIES, I'VE LIVED HEAR FOR 6 MONTHS AND CAN NAME 12 SMALL AND MEDIUM MILLION DOLLAR COMPANIES. HOW LONG HAVE YOU LIVED IN KINGSTON? YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF INFORMED?

Frankly; I do not care so much comparing Queens (a small University) to the rest of Canada - we are small in terms OK - lets hear them?

And relative to the rest of my point - "On World - i.e Germany, Japan and US (R&D)" - because thats where you will win in the long term. Rememebr things are global now - not North American insolated anymore!

Canadians are coming around - in certain sectors though.



CORRECT THE PROFITS GO SOUTH - BUT THE $40 Million in payroll stays here in Kingston. Average wage is $14/hr


Some how going from $ 24.00 an hour (the companies that just left) to maybe $14.00 does not sound positive for the 16,000 "undergraduate" Queens students you seem to think WILL stay to start their careers. I think T.O and Ottawa would be much more promising (and are) for persons with ("fresh degrees) and I will bet you most do leave. Considering most of them come from those cities!!!!

And Jim - your traditional business theory - is typical. Unfortunately - we (I) do not wish "sweat shop" telephone customer service companies - no matter WHAT their gross payroll is.

I (we) want quality and ethical business models here. Ones that treat their employees, shareholders and community with equal weight. Not traditional capitalist business unethical practices.

Service industry (here) mean restaurants, retail, boat cruises, Fort Henry ..hotel stays.. "tourist related" - that infact where effected by 35% when Sar's took hold. In fact Toronto felt it to. Passport issue is next!


Education and Health are the largest employment sectors in Kingston,
Government is a distant 3rd. -

Remember - the latter are ALL unionised situations. And VERY powerful in this "town".

Thanks again for your imput Jim -

- its "refreshing" to speak to someone with experince in a traditional business and economic development background.

[jim_collins]

we'll have to agree to disagree on a number of issues.

You state that the global and regional trends are not in Kingston's favor and the future is very bleak; Rising Dollar, Manufacturing going to China, All business, talented people and graduates prefer to be in Toronto - all contributing to these $24/ hr jobs to leave town and little to no future prospects of recruiting companies.

HOWEVER given this doomsday attitude, where Kingston has little future you have the audacity and arrogance to say that attracting 1200 customer service jobs where there clearly is an eager, able and willing labour force and $40M in payroll was a bad thing.

How often do you think communities as much as three times the size of Kingston manage to attract $40M in new payroll in one shot, let alone one year. The best years in Waterloo in the last decade were never close to that. and I would be stunned if the Ottawa Economic Development (a community 6x as large) has had success like that in the last 5 years.

The reality is, is that a commuity is comprised a mixture of talent levels and capabilities. A well thought out Economic Development strategy recognizes this and has a broad approach. Despite all of the technology companies in Waterloo they are (before I left) also focused equally on outsourcing/insurance and manufacturing. WHY, because the communities labor force is representative of these skill levels. Available talent is the most significant differentiator between communities that a company considers in making location decisions, (at a regional level, not global because I'm sorry it may be a global economy but Kingston's competition is Belleville, Ottawa, Waterloo, London, Windsor not Shang-Hai or Mumbai). If a company is considering off-shoring no-city in Ontario is in the running.

So enough with the complaints and negativity. We agree that Kingston has a ways to go to reaching its potential but it will only do so if its citizens make meaningful contributions through dialogue on what should be done. Not all the problems with everything in the world and what was done wrong 5 years ago.

Talk tangible solutions.

Give me 3 that are grounded in your arguements regarding global trends.

[Exhibitionist]

Frankly; strategically I like to begin with "brainstorming" - and I wish to start with are the basic assumptions: (that we need first to bring some "truth" or skanna to before any organisation or person can move ahead.)

Kingston does not have the "best talent" or networking "cultures" compared to the Global and regional centres such as Ottawa, Toronto, Montreal.

In fact; I would argue Queens graduates are rather poor examples of so called "talented economic participants".

I find other countries students are much more diligent because of traditional family expectation, competition in the classroom and a stronger sense of the world.

I believe 2/3 of Canadians are rather nieve in terms of other countries language and traditions.

North Americans have traditionally been insolated from the rest of the world. Both geographically, culturally and travel experience.

Until relatively recently they have not (thought) in terms of Global issues, economics, competition innovation and language requirements.

But, I would say going forward they do have some advantages:

Even though China is not my bet on being the most dominant economy in the world. (It will certainly be in the top 5)

1) I would say we are trusted by them (more than the Americans) and that we would and could have an impact in terms of Government and banking expertise. I beleive our larger cities do have many that could help with networking and cultural knowledge.

2) Pinning our currency to the Euro rather than the American dollar would also be a good thing for Canadians long term economic stability.

3) Developing ties with India in terms of infastructure and trade would also be a benefit. I would say our Indian community could and would help with this introduction to culture and networking.

Unfortunately Kingston is not well positioned in terms of "Global" competition. I still say the larger cities will have a huge and do have a expedential advantage over this "town" and its traditional business development. I say again KEDCO should be disolved and subcontracted to a network in T.O. (with some initial development from Mr. Robinson)

And again - Startecks sweat shops are NOT what we should be promoting here. Let Ottawa have them!

[Lydia]

MOTTO: ANY ONE CAN POINT OUT THE NEGATIVE THINGS IN LIFE BECAUSE THERE IS PLENTY OF THEM. HOWEVER, IT TAKES A WINNING, COURAGIOUS, TALENTED, GRATEFUL, PRAISE GIVING AND POSITIVE ROLL MODEL TO FIND THE BEAUTY IN ONE SELF AND ONE'S SOCIETY

This motto, I try to live.

Another Motto I firmly believe it this one:

Motto: IF YOU HAVE THE BRAINS TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IS "WRONG" WITH THE WORLD, SURELY YOU HAVE THE BRAINS TO FIGURE OUT A SOLUTION. SO STOP COMPLAINING AND START WORKING TOWARDS A BETTER FUTURE.


IF YOU ARE NEGATIVE YOU ATTRACT NEGATIVITY. The people in this city need to start to LEARN to become HAPPY and GRATEFUL for living here instead of JEALOUS, ENVIOUS, UNGRATEFUL. Think about it why should I come your way when you try Bullying, are are unwelcoming.

[Exhibitionist]

Motto: Don't cross the river if you can't swim the tide. - Lydia...

[Exhibitionist]

Your so called: "Negativity issue" - has nothing to do with (critical opinion) in the realities of the day. A framework of realities that you must honestly face, like global warming and rising second world issues.

As an example; Global Warming has been proven.

But, do you think the US and China and India have a "tipping" balance stake in such matters? Of couse they do.

of ourse friendly, political discourse should be utiliised (as Jim and I have)

- we just agree to disagree on (some) points.

Thats not to say he is right and I am wrong. Or that he and I have not learnt something from our communication.

And I believe in true Canadian fashion - I am absolutely convinced we will meet half way on alot of points.

But, please stop "patronising the forum participants" if you cannot allow us to have our "critical opinions" debated in some kind of informative, intelligent manner.

I do believe Kingston - has potential but I also believe history can teach you alot - especially if you have never lived here in some time.

And again I believe you think in the traditional business model.

[Lydia]

MOTTO: GO JUMP IN THE RIVER IF YOU CAN'T SAY SOMETHING NICE.

Of course, being NICE is something you are not. So I expect to see you in the River many times. Ill watch on shore where the majority of people are.

[Exhibitionist]

Better than "patronising the forum participants"

Just maybe instead of playing holy-er than thou - just mind your own bee's wax.

That would be a good start.

[Lydia]

Thank you Ex, You illustrate my point every time. See people if you expect crap you get crap.

We expect crap from ************* and We get crap from Exhitionist Same is true if you expect the same crap about kingston that Exhibitonist does then you get the same crap that Ex gives out. :cool: :cool: :cool:

[jim_collins]

Very crafty *************.

You prefix your arguement with stating that the sky is falling - Kingston is doomed - hence there is nothing this community can do and all suggestions to the contrary are ludicrous.

You avoid putting any thought whatsoever into what Kingston can do to improve its decaying infrastructure and stagnant tax base.

You should be incredibly grateful that the communities leaders don't have the defeatist attitude that you do otherwise you might as well sell whatever property you own now as the city is only going to get worse.

A very courageous stance. Reiterate and grossly exagerrate some global trends, attempt to divert the debate into an area where you believe your on safer ground.

As is many of your other arguements your suggestions are not grounded in reality or any sound logic.

1. CHINA -
a. ) China's biggest trading partner is the U.S, why on earth would they deal with the monkey when they can deal with the organ grinder.
b.) China hold more U.S Currency and bonds than any other country in the world. They have as much interested in the the success of the U.S.
c.) Canada's economy is predominatly primary industries (mining, oil, forestry) and services. Our manufacturing base is not, nor has ever been strong and a great deal smaller in % terms to the U.S. China is a manufacturing powerhouse. Why would China divert it's attention away from a market and relationships that leverage their own strengths.
d.) China's only interest in Canada is our oil and minerals.
e.) I'd say a 202 Billion dollar trade deficit with the U.S implies a a great deal of trust.

2. Benchmark against the EURO.
a.) This is absolutely the most ludicrious suggestion you've made yet. Any first year "untalented" Queen's student that has taken a Macro Economics course could provide a dozen reasons why this is ridiculous. Firstly, a 85% of our exports go to the U.S, almost 60% of our imports come from the U.S. EU exports and imports are less than 5%. The Bank of Canada benchmarks against the U.S dollar to smooth out volatility against the foreign currency that has the biggest impact on the economy. To benchmark against the Euro would result in greater volatility in the US dollar exchange rate. As a business person picture trying to sell a longterm contract, deal or project into the U.S - how on earth can you do that with any level of certainty when the exchange rate will be a great deal more volatile (either way). There is a very good reason why Banks in Canada can make relatively accurate forecasts of the U.S Exchange rate 6 months out. Lastly the exchange rate is primarily determined in the market place through the demand and supply of that countries currency which is caused by trade surpluses/deficits & foriegn direct investment. The Bank of Canada control of the exchange rate in practical terms is limited through money supply and interest rate targets. Wild adjustments on these (to bench mark against a currency that is the subject of less than 5% of the trade in your country) would have massive implications on investment decisions made by businesss. Even benchmarking it against Gold would prove more stable.
b.) Secondly. The U.S dollar is the gold standard currency of the world - there is a reason why OPEC sets and trades oil prices in U.S dollars. This is never going to change, these countries and all of the countries that the U.S are massively indebted to (ie. China, India, Canada, Saudia Arabia, Emerites, UK) would never ever on earth allow this to change because all of a sudden all of this debt that they have against the U.S drops considerably.

3. India - nothing new here, this has been known for years and is currently a major target for Canada's foriegn trade policy - stable government and currency, same language, highly educated, similar ties to england, emerging middle class and there is a billion of them. if you would like more on this - pick up any canadian business magazine.

Although I can respect your desire for debate but I have a extremely hard time accepting any meaningful criticism about what anyone in this community is doing to improve its future when you can't articulate a single strategy that Kingston should take and suggest kicking out $40 Million in payroll and putting 1200 people out of work - That ought to help out the economy / tax base.

Very few of your arguements are grounded in anything more than pure conjecture based on superfulous information you have seemingly picked up along the way. CASE and POINT - Rather than jump to the conclusion that Startek will move the 1200 jobs to India as you outlined above, why not do a little research. You might actually become informed about issues you seem to be so passionate about. Firstly Startek has 30 offices ONLY IN NORTH AMERICA, Secondly - Many of Startek's clients as outlined in Startek press releases have specficied only North American operations, Thirdly, Startek's CEO late last year clearly outline that Startek has absolutely no plans to pursue offshoring. (www.startek.com (http://www.startek.com))

*************, your arguements clearly outline a high level of arrogance and ignorance (a most dangerous combination). You are grossly pessimistic and I would hazard to say have significant delusions about your own intellectual capability. In my humble opinion your defeatist, contrarian, 'hell no that's a bad idea, but i don't have any myself" and "we might as well throw in the towel" attitude is indicative of a cancer/disease that is this communities biggest impediment to reaching its potential and the very reason for the current situation you so seem to despise.

In so doing the more you perpetuate this attitude and snare unsuspecting individuals into this view of Kingston - you condem Kingston while taking pride in the realization of 'your' self-fulfilling prophecy.

It is my sincerest hope that although you harbor this deeply rooted belief that Kingston is doomed and a lack of any meaningful alternatives other than just surrender to 'some networking group in Toronto", that you DO not stand in the way of individuals that seek to improve Kingston for future generations, by merely being resistant to everything with no suggestions of your own.

Not only might you be surprised, but much to my chagrin you might also reap the rewards.

[Lydia]

Jim, have you ever thought about running for Council position. I firmly believe that you would win hands down. You are a breath of fresh air. I am firmly supportive of Kevin George, Councilor for Loyalist Cataraqui District 2 for Mayor, however, should he decided not to run, would you consider it?

Jim, keep in mind that there ARE people who truly care about this city and work towards making this City the greatest it can be despite PEOPLE are negative towards it.

I firmly believe that the ordinary citizen thinks that all they have to do is work and care about their own back yard (Job). They do not have time to think about our elected officials. I firmly believe that their attitude towards anyone trying to impact Council is "Why bother" "Council won't listen". Sadly this may be true of some councilors. Unfortunately, the ones that truly care of their position and duties as councilors are lumped in the same mold as the ones who really don't care to listen. Truly, I can not blame the ordinary citizen for their beliefs. I want to try to make a difference, I want us to be PROUD of EVERY part of this city. I am retired, I will volunteer towards working to make this city proud.

I am not alone, with the exception of only 2 or 3 people on this site, There are many many more people who are doing wonderful work. Our founder, Thank God, is the most active, direct, intelligent, open, progressive, and futuristic person that I have met here in Kingston, ALL the elders of the Kingston Elections are care and work very hard to make things clear and to point out what needs to be seen by the public (example = this site).

Yes ************* is right, I have a big mouth. (of course so does he). Just realize that we are NOT the norm, so don't think that everyone who is on this site are like Ex or me.:D :D :D All the others truly care.;)

[Jim Butler]

Well, how refreshing. Kingston has been losing and losing and Kedco keeps getting funded! Kedco hasn't proven to me that they have paid for their existance. Maybe they will as I hear things are going to change but until then I have to say to *************, although we do not always agree, his point is well made and obvious to anyone willing to look at what Kingston has gained in business versus what has been lost. Sorry folks, it's in the red big time.

Jim Butler

[Frontenac]

There is no doubt that KEDCO has had a problematic history. But if local economic development is important to our community how should it change or what should replace it?

[Lydia]

I am sorry Jim, like i said any person can point out the negatives. Now how would you change things? Knowing you as I do, please advise us on how would you change things? You at least can point out negatives but you also can indicate what needs to turn things positive. I do respect your input as you know.

[Exhibitionist]

You avoid putting any thought whatsoever into what Kingston can do to improve its decaying infrastructure and stagnant tax base.


An external focus, attracting new business and promoting local ones outside the community will serve to grow the Kingston pie. A local focus drives a dividing up the pie differently.

Jim - firstly; the LVEC in my mind is a good idea gone bad. (site location especially @ North Block)

I support it, I have offered evidence why I support it, I have asked people in this forum and in the community from its outset to read the business plan, think outside the box, give it some thought, and think of it as contributing both to the business attraction / tax base thus infastructure and well being of its citizens.

It is unfortunate Lydia, Mr. Butler, Bruce Todd & SLN and some others in the community are TOTALLY against the LVEC.

I believe not only would it help bring in business here to Kingston, (read my many articles submitted)
and offer a better quality of venue for the community (both for non profit and for profit).

But, ALSO importantly offer a "beacon" to Kingston citizens for optimism and for prosperity!

How much more positive can one be ????

- Considering the current economic downsizing and historically the "culture" of entitlement Kingstonians are use to.


I also want you to take a look at this web site Jim.

(This is what we (you) are dealing with here.

http://www.kcal.ca


Secondly;

LOOK AT THE GRAND THEATRE - WHAT A DISASTER!

YOU WILL NEVER CONVINCE ME - THAT THE RENOVATION TO THE TUNE OF $ 15 MILLION +
FOR THIS THEATRE WAS A "POSITIVE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT PROJECT" ....

i.e either- fiscally or strategically responsible, or practical for taxation funding.

Frankly; If the local "heritage society" members wish to fundraise, volunteer and renovate strategically
for the upkeep of the Grand Theatre or other 19 century builds. I wish them my luck. I may even donate $ 50.00.

But, NEVER EVER allow these groups to receive tax payer monies!

We could have used (that money) for a brand NEW LVEC Centre
- that we all know we need (and voted the Mayor in for)
- and it will be used by most local groups / citizens for at least another 50 years.
- and much easier to control cost- to build.

What an obvious "Kingstonian blunder" even thinking the Grand (should be) or would cost 6 million to renovate!


Thirdly;


You did also did say to me:

It is a matter of having a computer to have a viable, flourishing small business - in this community.

I completely disagree!

This community needs (back) "good paying jobs", companies that will stay - that do not marginalise the community.

Certainly not one man bands, that take years to even make a profit if at all. (It may work in bigger cities but not Kingston.) We need good large companies that pay reasobably and are competitive and strategic in their principles.

As you also read today your taxes are going up 6% for the foreseeable future - and that Kingston has a higher than average tax "reliance" on is residential sector.

I do not wonder why when our local Government "institutions" pay no tax, and large companies are leaving with the 2000 good paying jobs. Among other reasons...

I would suggest (positively) - structure business policies/changes must be done.

As I have said before: (looking forward...)

Canada resources (i.e tar sands) is dirty crude- nor should we be contributing to it.
(tipping the balance) on Global warming / or Global Dimming
- selling all our resources to the Chinese Government, or emerging markets. (Just because we can.) - Is an old idea!

Infact; hydrogen, wind etc. power is were we should be investing (not your precious tar sands ideas for $$)

It is morally, politically and comes from the 19th century way of thinking.

We should be selling our "brain power, technology and banking experience".

How you can say we do not manufacture or do not have a history in it.

Ever heard of CD Howe? The Minister of everything?

We supplied alot of manufactured equipment during the war. Including ships, built here in Kingston! We have Alcan, Bombardier and Ellis Don. After the war the German and English machinist making a hell of alot of light and heavy fabrication, paint lines, extrusions, & research and development @ Alcan, including foundries and aluminum welding etc. - were all around Ontario.

My point was "compared to" the US, Germany and Japan we are small,
spe******ed fabricators now. But, selling resources is NOT the way to go.

In fact; the UK exports services (brain power) i.e banking, learning facilities, commerce etc. at 45% the export market GDP. WE sell 13%! The Austrialians 26% , and others understand this.

Queens will be setting up its first joint degree program with Concordia in India - next month! (although I hope its not all about MBA's) My gosh we need more like a hole in the head.

- Money is not what we should be focusing our children on. (Thats for sure.)

So, you are obviously troubled by my "understanding the situation" both economically, sustainability and ethically... here in Kingston or Globally I guess?

You may wish to volunteer at a social agency and get "another perspective" of how the world really is - its not all about capitalism, GDP, expotential smoothing and profits!

More positive incentives:

I would also suggest we lower the corporate tax rate to attract business to locate north of the 401. But, also have some employee training support (while on the job) at the firms.

I also believe that we need to put the infastructure in NOW - while they are working on the highways at the 401 - to be prepared to back for what we wish to "sell".

It seemed to work in Ireland. Why not here?

Yes, there is a place for the Starteck's of this world. Just like Walmart I suppose.

But, frankly I am against them. (in principle) It may not be rational "MBA" theory.

But, I disagree with the impact it has on our (citizens) of our community (and other communities) I dislike their business tatics to begin with and dislike the robotic,
low paying work that is provided. (Although I admit there is a market for them here.)

I do not think you understand my thinking on China.

Obviously; China wishes (and needs) resources and we do have many. I do not simply wish to (sell them the resources) with out some responsibility to use them.

They may have signed the WTO Treaty on paper - but I do not wish to deal with
"anyone" no matter how much I can earn - that is "pernicious" in the outcomes". (Especially a Government)

I was speaking only to the "potential" - not the historical obvious.

Our banking and Government "structures" are perceived and respected. American banking institutions are not (in terms of bankruptcy etc.) We do have connections here.

In fact the 200 Billion trade deficit is your example of how China "trusts" America. Sure the Chinese (like to buy the American Dream) I am sure they will have a huge Disney World one day there..yikes.

But, I disagree they truly trust the "Americans". Like their stand on Taiwan, influences in the Asian Pacific and I am sure there will be trouble down the road between them.

The Russians also are saying the American dollar should not be pinned to the price of oil, whats next gold! I say the Europeans (Euro) is a much better both politically, ethically to pin, or be associated with in the long term.

I think your traditional ideas will be quickly fading.

Again; I wish Canadians to "punch up" to these new "opportunities" to make (positive) contributions to ones world - and to not rely solely on what you suggest (how much one can make). That is regressive and traditionally opportunistic form of (greed.)

I am an entrepreneur - yes. I am always "thinking" in terms of opportunities, but "positive" forms - ones our community and our country can be proud of - not relatively only on making a buck - i.e. Starbucks and Startecks.

I understand your business theory Jim. But, I do not understand why your theory outweighs sustainable progress and business with ethical targets, not just profit.

The Euros main "political" economic interest is not necessarily (the theories) you would obviously suggest. It is really about "being more alike" - (the more stable and better off the countries/the world) will be in the long run.

You fail to raise the political reasons behind my suggestion. I do not think (I) wish to be aligned with the US. Politically, or morally.

So, what makes you think we should be? (Purely for profit?)

Because "economically speaking" we trade 1 billion dollars a day with US. I agree with you and I believe a majority would stay in place purely because we are linked, geographically, ethnically, technically and historically.

That’s not to say we would not loose some business going with the Euro, but in this day and age and beyond - I believe large Canadian companies and smaller companies would find great opportunities in Europe. (Another positive)

Again "morals" and principles have alot to do with MY community business economic development.

Start locally I say:

I believe Kedco should be shopped out. I believe they have been pernicious and have had their chance / or day in their traditional apathetic business model. (Or lack there of)

I believe this would be another "positive" step for Kingston.


See Jim two or three positives for you and Lydia to disseminate.

And I do not take any of this banter personally. And I hope you and others don't either. :p

[SLN]

I resent being lumped into the "totally oppose the LVEC" category.

I simply oppose a location that is too small and has no parking.

I am also dubious as to the possible economic spinoofs there can be from having a giant hockey arena tying up traffic downtown.

[Exhibitionist]

:confused: Lumped - was not me I hope?

If you have not read all the LVEC reports, listen to the experts on this project (not KCAL)...and have little to no experience with these facilities, but are totally against the project or backed the move from Anglan Bay to the new site location anyways.

I guess there maybe reasons to be lumped?

[SLN]

the location stinks. I don't need to read the report to figure that out.

Aside from the obvious traffic nightmare this thing is going to cause at least during the construction phase and possibly after, too, there's the bigger issue:

there's NO parking to Northeast, East or Southeast of the site. In the other directions, there are time-limited street spots, some of which are going to be given away to the Frontenacs and will therefore not be viable options for anyone else. If people come in twos to an event, that is 2500 vehicles assuming full capacity. Even 2000 vehicles trying to find legal parking (especially in winter) downtown is going to be awful. I personally have very little problem finding parking downtown as it is today. (People from the burbs always claim to have such a terrible time of it - they clearly lack skills, he he) BUT, add those extra cars to the equation and I'm sure the situation won't be as pleasant. Likely, you'll get people staying OUT of downtown for fear that an event might be on.

As for spinoff business to the downtown.. well, I suppose that stores will get people stopping in to warm up before continuing their 10-block walk from stadium to car in the winter time. (Whereupon the will no doubt find a parking ticket on their windshields.)

Conventions? I hope we get conventions, but I'll tell you this: If I were planning a convention I'd look for a place that had a lot of nearby hotel rooms or PLENTY of parking to accommodate my participants, guests and visitors. I suppose we have the four hotels downtown.. but is that really enough? I've often found that there are no vacancies in the city proper when planning for guests.

But aside from my problems with the location and the size of the project, I am not opposed to our constructing a large, quality, multi-purpose facility.

I'd put it at Lake Ontario Park and showcase our amazing waterfront. In addition, I'd up the capacity to 7500 seats, add a hotel and restaurant, and maybe even employ water-taxis to and from Confedration Basin, Anglin Bay, Wood's Landing and Portsmouth Harbour for a little flair!

[Exhibitionist]

If you have not read all the LVEC reports, listen to the experts on this project (not KCAL)...and have little to no experience with these facilities, but are totally against the project or backed the move from Anglan Bay to the new site location anyways.


I am sure I said ALL the reports (including the business plan, parking study) ...and listen to the experts.

Yes, of course there will be some parking issues if you go by car. But, the "transportation master plan" report:

- points to investments in non-auto transportation. i.e designated lanes etc.
- more than 2 people in a car,
- more buses
- encourage and building biking and walking lanes
- 1/2 the population of Kingston lives and works downtown
- hotels have parking for their guests, and believe me we will be building more hotels downtown
- spinoffs will be plenty - from supporting and expanding existing vendors, businesses to developing additional ones both downtown and in the local area. i.e from service based industries complimenting and enhance the "fair like experience" at the LVEC. Everyone likes a fair. And I believe the trade fair events and trade show events will develop new business for the region. On top of the concerts and recreation opportunities.

I believe the parking issue will never be perfect. Your right.

Will it be a "nightmare" compared to living day in and out in T.O?

Would I walk 6 blocks or get dropped off to see my favourite 40's, 60's or 70's, 90's musical act - locally?

Time will tell -

But frankly SLN - I cannot think in terms of the "glass half empty" ...anymore.

And I am a little tired of the arguments against the project. I believe when the 5 concil members against the current
7 project(s) or progress - are gone.

Then I think things will be delivered in a much brighter light than the nay sayers like us to believe.

And not all this doom and gloom I read here - every day!

[SLN]

Have you no favourite musical acts from the 50s or 80s? :)

But seriously...

no, it wouldn't be as bad as T.O. But that comprison is hardly the way to look at it. If I went out to dinner at a restaurant that served my food on dirty dinnerware would you tell me not to complain because it isn't as bad as the place with the cockroaches in the salad?

I will wait and see. But I still like the Lake Ontario site better. Hell, even the Kingston Center property would be better - far more ways to get in and out of that facility, from far more directions, and it's far more central.

[Exhibitionist]

No, I cannot think of to many from the 50's and 80's I would pay to see......;)

I have a little more experience than most on these facilities since I have worked in the event industry for 20 years.

I can tell you this is NOT EVEN close to a skydome facility or MTCC in T.O. NOT CLOSE in any respect.

The LVEC is a "tiny rink" not much bigger than the Memorial Centre. And the crowds are gone after an event there
in 1/2 an hour.

Just "try" and think it will be a pleasent surprised of how good this facility will be for the downtown - close to hotels, main community services and businesses, "local" shops and tourist facilities.

Having the facility anywhere else but Anglan Bay would be a disadvantage to the downtown community.

Read the reports it has all the right reasons so you don't have to guess.

[SLN]

I really and truly do hope that it is a tremendous success.

[Lydia]

The LVEC is a "tiny rink" not much bigger than the Memorial Centre. And the crowds are gone after an event there
in 1/2 an hour.

Exactly *************. tiny rink is right, which causes us Taxpayers, Millions of dollars for something we didn't need? We needed something substantial in the Divisions and 401 area instead we get a tiny rink. I guess that is a good deal.

I wonder how many TOURISTS will come to a ''''TINY RINK"".

[SLN]

Yes, precisely, Lydia.
Had it been bigger, in a better location, with more to offer I might be excited.
As it is now, I'm simply hopeful.
But I'm certainly NOT looking forward to battling crowds from curling tournaments, minor hockey, and bridal expos for my parking spaces.

[Exhibitionist]

If you had been both paying attention to the debate - most of the nay sayers "believed" the BIG rink (as coined by Jamie Swift of the PIC press) and his nieve followers KCAL think that the North Block site is the SKYDOME of the area no matter where you put it!

The LVEC is a relatively "tiny" rink compared to such mega nightmare stories, I have both read here from folks like yourselves and from Mr. Downes and coined in local leftie papers.

And as I mean by "tiny" it is relative to what seating capacity is required for this "tiny" City of Kingston.

(4-5000 seats capacity compared to 100,000 seat facility as per KCAL suggests)


Had it been bigger, in a better location, with more to offer I might be excited.
Anglan Bay was and still is the best location (not perfect) but certainly much more economically purdent location to downtown, for tourists and our tiny "local" businesses than out at the 401 with the likelyhood of Walmarts and Rio Can 2 being build beside it! And where most (poor included) would need to drive there.

This is NOT the suburban planning I or even Mr. Swift would likey endorse.

Bigger is not better.

[SLN]

I did not like the idea of putting it out by the 401, either. I agree that it should be central. LOP is a BEAUTIFUL place and it is difficult for me to suggest building anything there - BUT, this would be a grand and lively and potentially seductive location for visitors to the city. While it is not within walking distance to any local businesses, it is certainly the case that any overnight guests would stay the night downtown, therefore keeping themselves busy while in Kingston by shopping, eating is restaurants, and learning more about our city.

Like I said, too, the LOP location would give the facility room to grow. It would showcase our waterfront. It would be seen by boaters and by people on the tour boats. It would force visitors to see all of Kingston's offerings (almost) from St. Lawrence College to our hospitals to Queen's university on the way to and from the facility. With the LOP location, it could incorporate outdoor events as well as indoor: markets, concerts, open-air hockey games, perhaps a pool could eventually be built and the beaches developed again. It would have parking. We could get really creative and have shuttle service (buses, trollies, horse-drawn carriages, water-taxis) between downtown and the center.

People from the West would not have to travel as far, and people in the city would not have to put up with traffic. Liekly, the only place that would feel a burden would be where *I* live, and I still endorse that location.

Eventually they will develop the old POW facility. (I'm hoping to have the resources by then to be a part of it from the development side) The location of the LVEC (which at LOP could be much more "L") would lend itself to this site development and make little Portsmouth Village livelier - a sort of cultural enclave - and serve to virtually expand our downtown core.

These are my thoughts, and this is why I'm disappointed at the half-assed plan they're working on right now.

[Lydia]

Okay, Folks, If you were all against the 401 site then I would be more supportive of the Lake Ontario location and if truth were know I would probably be more supportive of the Lake Ontario area.

I live next to the Walmarts, Rio, Cat Centre etc. When I came here there was nothing but the Cat Centre. Don't blame the people out here if these companies felt they prefer out here instead of downtown. Remember downtown business people hate them and I guess these businesses who are CORPORATIONS prefer and will trive out here instead. At least they offer people a place to PARK FOR FREE. lol lol

[SLN]

the only reason I didn't like the 401 location was that a lot of travelers would just stop in at the event center and then turn right back around and leave the city. it also wouldn't have been as "pretty" (no water in sight). Other than that, though, I agree that West Enders would have benefitted more from that location, and I have no problem with that.

[Lydia]

Actually SLN, I think that westenders would much prefer the Ontario Lake location better than the 401. Bath Road to me is a much better and beautiful route to travel.

Your reason is very valid for not liking the 401. I don't think that even the westenders would really want to travel along the 401 that much either.

[Exhibitionist]

Lake Ontario Park would be one of the worst locations to put a facility of this complexity and scope of needs.

LOP is not owned by the City.

LOP would need to be purchased, serviced and has no local (walking distant) support services...

i.e restaurants, event logistics, business support service companies, local tourist services or hotels!

It is the least likely place I would put a facility. LVEC's are designed to be located close to these required necessities.

Yes, It would be pretty. But, impractical to add millions of tax payers monies to buy the property and millions more to build, promote more urban sprawl to add amendities around the facility that are already available and established.

The LOP is an impractical solution to an alternatively better location. And you can pretty well "ditto" the latter reasons for why I would not put it at the 401.

And thus was why neither were short listed in the LVEC business plan.

[SLN]

well aren't you just so sure of your every thought. Must be nice never to have to entertain anyone else's ideas!

[Exhibitionist]

The latter opinions - are simply facts.

I suggest anyone who wishes to debate the LVEC have read the business plan, and all studies and been in the industry long enough or know the difference between fantasy and reality of both urban sprawl and its relationship to public multipurpose type facilites.

I think you are right (or your idea) of the location would be fitting interms of estestics and maybe the suburbanits.

But, it has to many disadvantages to call it an "ideal site" for both required infastructure, complimentory amendities and (my) or the communities investment in taxes - to run the facility properly for 30 years on. There is also a master plan for building that does not designate the LON (Park) a "commercial property". Just imagine if area residences knew you wanted to build a large expansive commerical building in their park!

I think (your idea) would come back and bite you faster than you could say - " I should have done more research first".

Thus - it was NOT on the list of site locations that would do the "greatest good" both politically and economically for the community.

[Lydia]

Just imagine if area residences knew you wanted to build a large expansive commerical building in their park!



:D :D :D :D :D Yea, just imagaine. Wonder how those area residences will feel about instead of a LARGE EXPANSIVE COMMERCIAL BUILDING being put in their park as compared to A LARGE DIRTY PARKING LOT BEING CREATED BECAUSE THE LVEC HAS GOTTEN RID OF THE PARKING LOT DOWN TOWN. ALL THOSE IDLING CARS IN THE WINTER TIME, HOT SUMMER TIMES,

:confused: :confused:

[Exhibitionist]

Parking lot at LOP?
Because the LVEC is built downtown in a pedestrian friendly, fully serviced, bus friendly and with adequete close "*****" parking.

I think you are grasping at straws here .......or loosing it! :eek:


Read the data then waist my time!

[Lydia]

No, there won't be a parking lot at LOP, but there will be one in another neighbourhood park up by the Rideau Crest homes at least according to what was discussed at council meeting.

[Exhibitionist]

Well, if those upper class retirees in those high rise condo 's (KCAL) did not "conspire" to keep their "retirement view of the river" - even though their building completely blocks the older more established residential homes on Rideau Street....at the Anglan Bay, we could have had a better LVEC with parking on site - that was better suited for the ENTIRE community!

I guess thats what you get when you meddle in something you know little about - or more telling - if self interest intentions drive your intentions for your wealthy community expectations.

[Lydia]

:eek: Do i see a :mad: face? I don't blame you those darn high rise condos at Anglin bay crowding the older homes out. The nerve.

Of course that is also the reason I was totally against the LVEC being on Anglin bay. Why block the site more with another SMALL Rink???

Good to see you coming around to my way of thinking. Mayor Hazel won't allow Condos or Big Entertainment Centers on her Water front either for exactly the same reason.

Don't build on the waterfront!!!!!!!!!!! Period. Protect it, Beautify it only.

[Exhibitionist]

Well - unfortunately or fortunately our geography limits our urban sprawl in 2 directions - East or West. And until they have another bridge - West is it!

This obviously limits ones "opportunites" or threatens our waterfront (depending on whom you ask).

But, I agree the waterfront is not necessarily the best place for "highrises" over the current 6-7 story bylaw.

But, the LVEC is NOT 6-7 stories tall. Nor would it deter from sight lines for most of the residences on Rideau St. especially because Rideau Street sits so high over the river.

And with the LVEC at Anglan Bay - it would surely be enhanced with the funding.. for landscaping around the inner harbour! (READ the business plan - its in there!)

Have you walked down there in the past year or so? I do not think you have...and doubt many of KCAL (could) walk or wish to walk if they could ...down there after 8 p.m.

But, now you say we get a parking lot with no LVEC no landscaping and no one cares. (Thanks alot KCAL!)

For the wealthy "retired" folks of KCAL and KTA "and condo owners of prime waterfront realestate"
(whom seem to wish to live & die in a - rich downtown condo "setting" with no interuptions...to their new lifestyle)

And are unwilling to intregrate "into a modern City downtown setting" with its unique noise, and bustle akind to established "high density" ...for the (long term) vibracy of the "downtown" ...and for renewal of he City's heart or core.

And less urban sprawl - WEST of the City...

(Even though most of the not so wealthy "real people" (will) live downtown for 50 years or more need to work, play, entertain and raise young families..and understand living "downtown" and what it means... ) - long past the 60-100 year olds...whom end up habitating on their "sunset porchs with vistas of woolen mill weeds and enless grass and water overlooked by Fort Henry" (..to show off to their guests).

If they wish to "walk into the sunset" in their "golden age" with their pensions and their prostates - maybe it is best for them to live in the suburbs where they would feel more "familar" than living in the downtown "core" destroying the waterfront for the residences that actual have lived their for generations!

Does not Mayor Hazel live OR HAVE FRIENDS OF KCAL STRIPE? I am sure she has family in the BIG building OR A MEMBER!

[Lydia]

I have to be realllllllllllllly honest with you *************s. I reallly hate the idea of living in any downtown location not just Kingston's.

I fully realize the advantages of doing so and I high recommend it for young families who need to work for living and who have careers. It is the best place to live if you own and operate a business. In fact as far as i am concerned it is really the ONLY place. However that is according to my standard of living.

Fortunately or not, I reallly love the west end suburban location. I actually enjoy my varanda, lol lol. I remember a study done many years ago with rats. If you put alot of rats together in a close location with one another they will fight and die of stress. I have always remembered that study that was done.

After living in a urban location and very close to my neighbours, I have experienced neighbours who fought at the drop of the hate. I mean vicious fights, chain saws, hugh signs on lawns telling other races to stay off the grass. That is exactly why i moved to Kingston.

I am white, anglo, canadian, and have never had any argument or fight with anyone from another country and I hope to never have one. I respect all people INCLUDING you, *************. lol lol.

That is the reason I will never put people down for the location that they live in. I only wish you could have the same respect for people in the suburbs. Heck move out here Ex, you might like it. lol lol.:p :p :p

[Exhibitionist]

Lydia - what are you speaking to?

1) My thread was about that wealthy condo owners who have invested in a mega condo on the waterfront have hijacked the LVEC project for their own self indulged lifestyle!

2) They want to live "downtown" - but do not want the "hassles" of living in a vibrant downtown. In other words they want a gated community of their own. And they want peace and quiet (downtown)

3) The geography of Kingston is limited to areas of development - being discusssed i.e waterfront and West end.

4) KCAL condo group conspired for the soul purpose of "against anything near their gated lifestyle" or anywhere...but now leaving the downtown with a their legecy of a parking lot with unlandscaped parks (downtown) How is this good?

Your points seemed to have nothing to do with what my points - are with regards to the subject at hand...?


Im' a confused, ignorant yuppie, waspy, generally stupid, Mr. know it all and now perplexed...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

P.S - I have nothing against anyone other than when "interest groups" meddle in things for their own self centred means.

......................................That selfishly effect the majority of residents in the area - for years to come.

P.S - I am anglo to. I do not know what that has to do with anything - other than "they" do not tend to express their true feelings very often (especially infront of ones face)

Its that "British stife upper lip" generation in both in Kingston and around the world ...and yes Kingston is as white as a vanilla ice cream cone. (Queens has been scolded several times on this issue, for lack of visible minorities in its staff and students)

I frankly find Waspy Kingston - is a little boring and I prefer more diversity. The sooner the better!

[Lydia]

Im' a confused, ignorant yuppie, waspy, generally stupid, Mr. know it all and now perplexed...


HAY HAY HAY, STOP PICKING ON YOURSELF LIKE THAT. That my job. :eek: :D :D

Firstly, I don't see you in that light one bit. However, a Mr. Know it all, okay. lol lol.

IF AND I MEAN IF the only complaint you have is that LOBBY GROUPS should not have COMPLETE SAY about what happens in Council, Then I FULLY SUPPORT YOUR POSITION.

I just find that your definition of what a LOBBY GROUP is, differs from who i put in as LOBBY GROUP. I am TOTALLY in favour of TAXPAYERS /RESIDENTS having INPUT in their city and should be INFORMED about every aspect of what their councilors are discussing and deciding upon.

[Exhibitionist]

I just find that your definition of what a LOBBY GROUP is, differs from who i put in as LOBBY GROUP. I am TOTALLY in favour of TAXPAYERS /RESIDENTS having INPUT in their city and should be INFORMED about every aspect of what their councilors are discussing and deciding upon.

1) My opionion to your general statement - is about wealthy retired condo owners or participants in interest groups / paying members or not -who invested in a mega condo on the waterfront and have contributed to: hijacking the LVEC project for their own self indulged lifestyle!

2) They want to live "downtown" - but do not want the "hassles" of living in a vibrant downtown. In other words they want a gated community of their own. And they want peace and quiet (downtown)

3) The geography of Kingston is limited to areas of development - being discusssed i.e waterfront and West end.

4) KCAL condo group conspired for the soul purpose of "against anything near their gated lifestyle" or anywhere...but now leaving the downtown with a their legecy of a parking lot with unlandscaped parks (downtown) How is this good?

Your points seemed to have nothing to do with what my points - are with regards to the subject at hand...?

[Lydia]

Wow can you imagine a council which is going to ensure that STAFF gives accurate information and presents council members with comparison pricing of services and projects??? What a novel idea.

Last night we learned that 6 Board of Directors from Kedco resigned as of January. 4 of them have graciously agreed to stay on should it be necessary for an extra month.

It appeared to me that these new councilors are not intimiated by the older councilors namely Leonore Foster and Ed Smith. The Nerve. Althought I felt that Mayor Harvey, and Leonore, and Ed were not to happy with these new councilors because it seemed to be that they voted against anything that was suggested by the new people.

These new councilors informed the Staff that they would not PASS anything until they received cost comparison and accurate information. Imagine.

Now when it came to dealing with Kedco. Vicki Schmolka had the NERVE to suggest that there be a public meeting allowing people who MIGHT be interested in letting them know OUR ideas on who we think would be the best people to sit on the Board. Can you imagine, Mayor Harvey and Ed Smith didn't want any part of that because let's face it folks the HAND SELECTED previous board members were the EX PERTS.

Oh my how awful it would be to get someone within this city that they PEOPLE think would do a better job. We were told that People like Beth Paters, and people who Ed would want would be better than who the citizens and business owners in this city could pick. After all we have to admit that we all know that the Kedco Board of Directors had all the answers.

Well folks THANK GOD FOR VICKI, Rob Matheson, Sara Meers, Lisa Osanic, Joyce MacLeod-Kane, Rob Hutchinson, Bill Glover, Dorothy Hector, Mark Gerretsen,and of course Steve Garrison.

With these people on council, I know that we are in excellent hands and these people will represent the people and are not AFRAID to be open to their voters. These people will choose wisely and thoughtful the members to be part of the NEW BOARD OF DIRECTORS ON KEDCO.

All I can ask to Ed Smith, is this: I believe that EXs are EXs for a reason. Would you trust an Ex girlfried, and EX-Spouse, and Ex-friend? Well why the heck should we have Ex-councilors on the Board of Directors of Kedco?

Now folks, these new councilors need public input and they have asked for it. Don't let them down. Let them know what you want. Tell them who you would like to serve on the Board of Directors.

As far as my suggestion for two people I would like to see on the Board of Directors. I actually like Jeff Garrah, and Mark Hanley. Yes these are people who will work towards getting business to Kingston. Here is a surprise they have knowledge of KEdco.


Oh Yes, Vicki, Go Girl Go.

[Florence]

I think that Bernie Robinson was out of step with the prevaling mood of the city and perhaps with the Mayor as well. It is certainly time for a transparent process. However I think accepting nominations from identified groups would be a mistake. It is hard to say what skill sets one needs for such a Board of Directors. I suspect that 'caring' isn't enough. This may be the kind of situation where one looks for 'Names' and lets the staff do the real work.

[Lydia]

I like your idea alot Florence. I agree with you. Caring is NOT ENOUGH. Being in charge of anything isn't an easy task. One of the reasons I stated that I would nominate Jeff Garrah and Mark Hanley is because they are not AFRAID to speak with the ordinary citizen. They show respect to everyone and still are able to communicate with Upper levels of Management.

However, I personally believe that there are MANY excellent choices from Business representatives throught this entire city.

One thing I would love to see if possible is to have people from all different industries represented. If anyone held a President's position of any kind (including Unionized positions) then I would like to see them suggested. I am not a union person but I am not afraid of them either.

Maybe someone who worked for the city previously like Bruce Todd would be an excellent choice as well. Let's do something total CRAZY and wonderful lets get people from different social groups.

How about people who find jobs for the unemployed people in this city. Someone who truly knows which companies are willing to come here, hire here and prosper here and create an industry here.

[BornAndRaised]

There seem to be quite a few people who were hired to run KEDCO and either weren't effective or left after a short period of time. Maybe we can determine that there is a problem with having KEDCO seperate from the city. How closely did KEDCO work with the city to draw business to Kingston? Maybe they couldn't bargain with companies because they couldn't make promises on things like tax breaks, development charges, etc.

Maybe a city staffed KEDCO could have more bargaining power to bring industry and other business to Kingston. They may be able to take advantage of other city resources much easier that an outside agency. If the city does run KEDCO then I feel that the positions filled should be contractual so they don't get stuck with someone that they are not happy with and renewal could be based on performance. It would probably be a huge benefit to having someone who has experience in opening up a business in Kingston in charge of KEDCO as they have seen things through the eyes of the people that we want to bring to our great city.

I remember an old boss of mine saying that our water tower in the township should have read Industry Dies A Slow And Painful Death Here instead of Industry Grows Here. I didn't entirely agree with him but he was the one to start up a business here, not I. People like this and there opinions could be a huge benefit to someone in charge of KEDCO as they would have a first hand understanding of the problems that companies face when strting or growing their company here in Kingston.

[Lydia]

I can agree with you Born and Raised. I believe that Vicki is correct in reaching out to the public meetings for better clearity on who the people want.

I am fairly new myself here ( 7 years) and I heard the same comments about this city tower. lol lol.

I believe that until all the red tape that the city puts in the way of people starting INDUSTRIES here that it will be extremely difficult for us to grow.

Once the public meeting has been called, come out to that meeting and give them your ideas. They are very good viewpoints. I know that I will also be out there support these councilors.

[Dogma]

This subject came up during the elections with a colleague of mine. And after the usual "business types" that one would think would make up a good
"local economic development board"...

I reflected to think what agency (non profit) that SHOULD (in my mind) be on the Kedco board, that has no exclusive voice to their own agencies mandate or
political funding territory.

The non profit agency (again - in my mind) that has money to spend, that is unbiased, is well respected and could and does currently help all the
non profit agencies in the city.

The Kingston Community Foundation.

The board could end up being a "typical business board" - but I think these types of boards are to concentrated and lack the non profit perspective.

I would also be against the City taking over the KEDCO mandate..I say make it smaller, but I see little experience or resources avaliable in the council chambers halls.

[Lydia]

When I think of typical business board i think Chamber of Commerce. Although this is a very good group os business people, I don't believe that they truly represent the majority of business people. I would like to see small business owners represented on the KEDCO board, I would Like to see non-profit business represented as well. I would also like to see a student who is working towards a BA in Business. How about a retired executive from a major industry. I am not against the board members who stated that they would stay on if asked. I say lets have them PLUS members from the other groups. Then, If there is room I would not mind having Beth Pater on the board either. I am not against her at all. I just believe opening the discussion up to the public is the most important task at hand.

[Dogma]

Lydia - I agree that there should be a diverse group publically and transparently endorsed as candidates. I have trouble with non profit groups specifically on the board such as the food bank agency. Thus the only unbias group with lots of influence (for the community) can only be the Foundation.

If making up the board includes business type people or experience - these days you would be surprised to note "non profits" now are much like businesses. And frankly I would say more accountable. They have business plans, a board and acheivable and measurable goals for the monies they have. The foundation has millions. They make a profit, re invest and hire many highly educated and prudent MBA executive directors.

In fact; I would say they would be the best to bridge the traditional membership of Kedco: Re: the have and the have not's of our community. And can give the KEDCO board a more rounded perspective and much image makeover.

Economic development is not just about "creating jobs". It is also about the distripution of wealth in a balanced and long thoughful way for the long term planning of a community.

Just my two sense - but they need to have a seat for a non profit agency.

I am surprised you did not mention women's business organisations, Chamber yes , Kingston Home Based Business is also another.....

[Lydia]

I agree with you completely I do believe that "non profit" organizations are much lie businesses and are very accountable. They do have business plans and do measure goals are not afraid to tell it as it is. Many of them do deal with millions and know now to re-invest, and hire very professional educated people.

Do You know anyone that would be excellent on the Board for Kedco. If so go to the public meeting and let these new councilors know who that person would be.

This is the chance for the residents of this city to make THEIR choices. Kedco does need more rounded perspectives and better image.

Economic development is not just about "creating jobs". It is also about the distripution of wealth in a balanced and long thoughful way for the long term planning of a community.

Well said, Dogma. It is like who comes first the chicken or the egg. The customer or the business. The customers are the people who can afford to spend. They can't spend if they don't get some of the wealth. My Father-in law use to say they made money round to go around. lol lol of course he only had two sense. lol lol.

I am surprised you did not mention women's business organisations, Chamber yes , Kingston Home Based Business is also another.....

Interesting comment, do i SOUND like i am only for women's business organizations??? lol lol. I believe in HUMAN RIGHTS lol that includes Men and women alike. lol lol. Since I grew up in a Home Based Business, I of course would love to see more people from the small business group included on the Board. That is the reason I think Jeff or Mark would make excellent board members. However, that is just my input.

[Dogma]

Excellent advice by you and your father in law. I could not agree more.

I have forwarded my suggestion to Vicky S. and she has acknowledged the suggestion. I agree Mr. Garrah seems like a reasonable, hardworking, & committed member of Kedco.

I still must suggest the budget of Kedco needs to be cut by 10%. The money put into the reserve fund for any future transitions. It would give a sense of accountability, and a small message or warning - which I believe is warranted
based on the current "public perception" of Kedco.