LVEC - Government Falls, Money Disappears -- I.M. Pertinent

[keoadmin]

Shades of Kingston 2000, yet another downtown arena is coming off the rails. Witness our good mayor's comments all over the media this past week (except, bizarrely, in the Whig) about how LVEC could be suspended indefinitely because the federal government fell before Kingston got $8 million in grants - a critical financing component.

For the record, before I get pigeonholed as anti-LVEC, I'm very much a downtown entertainment centre supporter. I would have been thrilled with Anglin Bay; less enthused about the North Block, but if it gets LVEC built then I say go for it. I'm also a fan of our mayor.

But déjà vu folks, didn't we just go through a request for proposals that lured in big players from all over the country with promises of building a fabulous downtown arena on Block D then send them all home again after they poured bazillions into developing proposals? Didn't we end up with Kingston 2000 and in the end, an arena/condo/retail/performing arts/you-name-it centre that was way too rich for Kingston? Didn't we practically drive Kingston 2000 into bankruptcy with demands for this study and that public consultation because we weren't satisfied with the answers and then didn't we toss out the project lock stock and barrel anyway because in the end, it simply was not affordable?

Why then are we asking more design firms, arena operators and construction companies to send in proposals and proceed with preliminary planning for a downtown arena that we already know we can't pay for? Shouldn't we at least make sure we have the money first?

Where and how Don Gedge thought he was going to get $8 million in federal grants was always somewhat of a mystery. Maybe he was counting on being such a nice guy that the feds would just hand the money over. That is the wont of federal Liberals, it seems. But now that we know we don't have the money - and now that we don't even have a government to ask for the money - must we pretend to be forging ahead with a project for which we've already said we don't have the money?

-- I.M. Pertinent

[macphail]

Didn't we practically drive Kingston 2000 into bankruptcy with demands for this study and that public consultation because we weren't satisfied with the answers and then didn't we toss out the project lock stock and barrel anyway because in the end, it simply was not affordable?

Ummmm....I think we were just a passenger along for the ride on that point. K2000 either drove there all by themselves or had been fairly close from the very start.

The City is putting the cart before the horse in its rush to fulfill the Mayor's mandate, but this isn't exactly precedent setting. Take for example the hiring of Mr. Gedge for a three year contract when it wasn't even certain the project would move forward. Or how about those extra wide sidewalks along the OHIP building? That is, unless you really do believe the width of them had nothing to do with anticipation of the LVEC going on Anglin Bay, in which case, I have a bridge to sell you too (well...maybe half a bridge, but with a government grant, you can build the rest on your own).

Maybe a local federal candidate will include the LVEC in their campaign. It got Rosen elected, right? :rolleyes:

Cheers, Derek

[Exhibitionist]

I agree with you - it seems like K2000 project all over again.

Mostly though because the "senior residence" seem to be closest to the action - in both attempts at a LVEC.

These older folks wanted to avoid (in both cases) progress by moving to Kingston.

Unfortunately; I believe the "senior residence" should realise they cannot live in a bubble - especially if they live "downtown". (Move to the suburds if you do not want change) But for the younger ones - like us - and more marginalize (no 30 year jobs for us) ...we could use some entertainment and maybe some economic spin offs.

I believe also Kingston does not have alot of experience with such things: such as an LVEC. And Rick Downes seems to enjoy keeping it that way - by using the "conspiracy" card (or X - file theme that most of the Kings Town young families, seniors buildings and Liberial Studies Prof's seem to be all NIMBY about. Its like a flash back into the 60's for them.....

I have talked to KCAL and many people in this area ...and they really do not have a clue - with regards to the LVEC, business, industry or LVEC facility mangement.

This is a very small facility - yes an expensive hockey rink (Than Kingston is use to) but not a very important project compared to most facilities of this type.

Read my article to KCAL member(s) - under LVEC. You can see some proof there regarding KCAL - as a spokesman /persons against anything. LVEC.

Kingston - is such a stupid place for such matters. And the Queens Prof's (Kingston always leans on) may no there studied subject - but not much else. They are as stupid and ignorant on this matter and most - thats beyond the walls of oh precious Queens!

[Lydia]

*************
Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3

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Just maybe the ""older folks know more than you do and don't want to WASTE MONEY THAT COULD BE USED FOR SOMETHING USEFUL.

Raming projects without honest OPEN discussion down people's throats is not progress in my mind.

The reason elders HAVE MOVED OUT TO THE TOWNSHIPS IS BECAUSE THEY PREFER TO LIVE THERE AND THAT IS WHERE MOST OF THE GROWTH TOOK PLACE OVER THE PAST 10 YEARS. More businesses out that way then downtown. Wonder why???

If you are jealous of the fact that there isn't any 30 year job offers out there anymore than I would think people should start working towards getting them AGAIN. After all the ""Old Folks"" had to fight to get them. Maybe you should start insisting on that opportunity for your generation.

When it came to entertainment and economic spin offs, the Old folks created what you have NOW. They worked their backside off to get it. Now it is YOUR TURN TO GET OFF YOUR BUTT AND STARTING CREATING IT AGAIN.

Rather than being upset with ""Old Folks"" try Getting the businesses that want the LVEC to PAY FOR IT WITH THEIR MONEY AND NOT TAX MONEY. After all if it is such a great thing, why are they even asking for kingston to pay for it. Why don't they pay for it????

That 60s were great, So was the 50s the 40s the 30s. The people from those years have VALUES AND RESPECT. They were also educated and had manners. They didn't call people stupid, and ignorant. They worked and respected their community.

Just maybe you would do well to learn from these ""Old folks".

[Exhibitionist]

I believe you come from an era - where anything goes... do it yourself and pay your own way....individualiism!

i.e One of over consumption, enviromental degradation and free enterprise.

I believe your generation had it TO good (through 1950's - 1970's) that you seem so glib about..I believe you did "very well" economically - based on the assumptions and rules of the day. (you probably even have a pension)

I believe "our generation" - any many to come now.. have to pay for it.

Both with higher taxes, unaffordale housing, urban sprawl and enviromental cleanup bills. I believe (we) will have to have (5) different job/careers in out life time. We will not have stable jobs, health care or quality of life like you had. You probably are from after the war - where ecomomic growth was easy - and everyone lived in cookie cutter houses with 2 kids and 2 cars. (waspy as it was - they were to comfortable)

I believe my children will be marginanalized both "globally" and locally because of decisions & mistakes your generation made. i.e Cando Reactors, Belle Park dump sites, Hydro electric dams, deforestation and industrial dumping into the Great Lakes. (contributing to Global Warming) to name a few...

I believe the KCAL and seniors do not necessarily have a right to say -
the LVEC cannot be built on water front - spoiling their "view".

I believe the residence on Rideau St. have a "spoiled view" by the condominims - many the KCAL residence and you seniors live in.

I believe seniors "from out of town" - do not contribute significantly to the local Kingston economy.

Infact; I think they contribute a large burden to hospitals, roads, infastructure and the environment.

Get off my butt? - is rather pernious and rude.
(have some manners yourself...)

I have 3 jobs - I work 6 days a week - I need to raise a family on two (2) incomes.

- Not ONE! ....Like your generation had....

I own a used - small car, I live in a very small previously owed house, I walk downtown, I do not own a microwave, large TV, a pension.. or have anything to do with large "box stores" in the urban sprawl areas - you seem to hold in high regard!.

I am doing my part to help reverse the capitalist "free enterprise" mistakes of your generation.

I expect also I will not have a CPP pension, company pension like yours!

I also don't have the time like you to write letters all day.

I believe KCAL and other are "ignorant" of the workings of facilites such as the LVEC.

Infact: I actually do have "20 years experience with such LVEC facilities". (In production and management.) In places like the MTCC Toronto, overseas in Germany and in the US.

(Please read my letter to Steve Black re: LVEC) - for more...on KCAL. (KCAL do not have ....any experience.... just conspiracy theories)

I do not wish to sound - overly pretentious but I know more about these facilities than YOU or most who live here.

You have never had an LVEC here. Kingston is looked upon as the laughing stock (in the industry) when it comes to convention facilites and OHL hockey arenas.

(Question: if you know so much about LVEC's what is the definition and origin and necessity of "drayage".)

I also believe my grand parents did worked hard - and so do (I) - but
on the enviromental impact/cost and the throw away society (you began) - they did not work to smart. Canadians are the worst enviromentalist.

I still believe the downtown LVEC will help - local small downtown retailers (Shoppers Drug Mart just expanded because of downtown initative such as the LVEC) - and I think we as the community should support the downtown community!

And I am absolutely against box stores/urban sprawl...) Why are you so for it? Do you really think - that driving to a box store helps the local economy? And you are giving them TAX BREAKS! The money goes to head office @ Home Depot in the US? How does that help us???

The LVEC is "a beckon" for "local progress and downtown development" - for projects such wind/solar power and enviromental building methods etc.

And of course contributing significantly to the cultural, economic and good enviromental impact of our "local" community.

No disrespect - but I think YOUR generation needs to "learn a thing or two of long term thinking / and not throwing away your swifters!"- we are higher educated than you frankly - most have degrees or diplomas - your generation did not - YOU could also get a teachers certificate in one year!


All you seem to care about is "individualism" - (and how it use to be) and that the possible higher taxes you may / may not be issued, the ideals of individual freedom the use of cars and suburbia. (& all linked to urban sprawl) - is ok with you.

Frankly; its the previous councils that are utimately to blame for higher taxes these past 10 years. (Not the LVEC)

They did not raise enough taxes in YOUR time - and did not invest in local infastructure projects, business incentives and NOW guess what? It has come to rest now on our generation. And younger citizens of Kingston are in trouble. Well duh? - not you though. You have pensions, 30 years of steady work and 2 kids and cars to smootttthhh ....life over.

The LVEC will help pay forour current issues (over the next 30 years) - not add to them. ANY business takes at least 5-7 years to make a profit. This is basic math! - You educated ones should know this?

I would suggest you start reading the LVEC business plan (remember these palns are- only a forecast!) and learn about the facility through experts and its multipurpose charateristics and its benefits to the "local" downtown.

BEFORE you judge the process and "rumors of this small town" - thinking.

[Lydia]

Old habits are hard to die

You are correct I do come from an era of do-it-yourself and individualism which is great and to be proud of our accomplisments.

My era believed in FIXING THINGS instead of throwing out things such as TVs, Sewing Machines, Fridges, Radios, etc. We didn’t get rid of them we fixed them up so that the enviroment was not destroyed. There were businesses that did this kind of work ( fixing things up) and there was plenty of work for people. Nothing was free for us. We worked for everything we got.

Iam sorry that your generation does not have it “”TO GOOD” I truly wish that your generation would have things a lot better. You are correct that my generation were greedy and that we have the money that WE WORKED FOR AND SAVED. Money that we are using to just stay alive. Also money that we will hand down to YOUR generation because we too will die because we don’t have the Health System that we wanted and tried to preserve. Your generation won’t have that either. I agree I would be upset as you are.

In our day $1,000,000 meant you are Rich, Now you almost need a Million to say alive.

Your generation has not nor will ever pay for what My generation needs or even wants. Your generation will have to fight, work and save for what YOUR generation needs and wants. Hum Just like my generation has done. Be thankful for what we have right now because of your grandfathers/mothers generation because they truly did establish a much better system than my generation has provided for you.

I am glad you have pointed out now badly your generation is off for the reasons mentioned below. Higher taxes, unaffordale housing, urban sprawl and enviromental cleanup bills. (5) Different job/careers in out life time. Not stable jobs, health care or quality of life like we had. Here is a surprise I AGREE FULLY. My Son and Daughter are 30 and 35 and that is exactly WHY I pushed to have them educationed in University . This is the very reason they will be life time students. It is not fair one bit.

Your children do not need to ever be marginalized EVER. I agree that the projects you mentioned is exactly the reason YOUR generation should stand up and FIGHT WITH US AND NOT AGAINST US. We are still fighting but we are getting too old to continue fighting for exactly what you want. It is now YOUR generation to pick up and fight for. Cando Reactors, Belle Park dumps sites, Hydroelectric dams, deforestation and industrial dumping into the Great Lakes. (Contributing to Global Warming) to name a few. Are OUR BATTLES TO FIGHT TOGETHER?

I Hate agreeing with you however When you are RIGHT, YOU ARE RIGHT. Now that you know the problems, get busy and find the solutions, fight with our elected politicians, fight with our corporations. Get out there and FIGHT TOGETHER.

You are right when you say you believe the KCAL and seniors do not necessarily have a right to say - the LVEC cannot be built on waterfront - spoiling their "view". That way of thinking is “”NOT IN MY BACK YARD”. I don’t believe in the LVEC being built on the waterside due to conservation, pollution, etc. That is WHY I DON’T WANT IT ON THE ANGLIN BAY. Toronto and other bigger cities are turning way from BUILD IT ON THE WATER EDGE mentality.

You believe the residence on Rideau St. have a "spoiled view" by the condominiums - many the KCAL residence and seniors that live there. This is true, unfortunately the city allowed this to happen. Should the city continue making the same mistake???

You believe seniors "from out of town" - do not contribute significantly to the local Kingston economy. I agree that is another reason NOT TO BUILD THE LVEC. However, you and I cannot force out of town people to come here to contribute to OUR economy. Just to let you know the People in the TOWNSHIPS NEVER EVER WANTED TO JOIN THE CITY AND NEITHER DO THEY WISH TO DO SO NOW.However, the government imposed this on us. Do you want the township to take back their taxes from the City of Kingston and allow them the run their own areas much better than this city is doing for them> If you do I would agree with you. Let’s stand up and do it.

The fact that you think that people out of town are large burden to hospitals, road and the environment is interesting. Again remember the people out of down HATE going down town and WILL NEVER NEED TO. They may want to but they WILL NEVER NEED TO AND DON’T.

What? Getting off your butt is not pernious and rude? My generation did that and is still doing it.

I am very sorry to know that you need 3 jobs – and that you work 6 days a week in order to raise a family on (2) incomes. That does suck. That fact that my generation did do it on the one shows you that just maybe what the older people are trying to tell this generation is to get back to basics. Let us fight with the governments, corporations etc and let them know that they should provide HELP for people like you and your generation. Let’s get at least one parent to stay home and look after their own children. Lets get the housing prices down; lets get rid of Visa, and other loans that are killing the spending power of money. Etc.

I have always kept my car for over 12 to 13 years and because I am older know and don’t know how to fix my own cars, (due to technology) I have to trade it in and keep the next one for another 12 to 13 years. I also live in a previously owed home and I am happy and proud I don’t own a mortgage.

I am lucky, I do own a small microwave, because I try to converse energy. Okay I do own a large TV (if a 27 inch one counts as one) We can agree with one thing I hate “box stores too.

Where I TOTAL DISAGREE WITH YOU THIS FOLLOWING STATEMENT.“I am doing my part to help reverse the capitalist "free enterprise" mistakes of your generation.I would rather Capitalist instead of So******ts any day. At least you have the FREEDOM to argue and fight with me without danger of being harmed like people who live in countries that are not.

My generation is actually fighting to ensure that your generation does get to keep the CPP. We need your generation to fight for it.

You are entitled to your belief that KCAL an others are "ignorant" of the working of facilities such as the LVEC.

I am impressed that the fact that you actually do have "20 years experience with such LVEC facilities". (In production and management.) In places like the MTCC Toronto, Overseas in Germany and in the US. (Please read my letter to Steve Black re: LVEC) - for more...on KCAL. (KCAL do not have any experience just conspiracy theories) For that reason I do respect that you are entitled to your feelings of being upset with the KCAL group. I just don’t share them with you, nor do I have your experience either. My problem with the LVEC is not that there is going to be a LVEC. My objection is and will always be in the way decisions were and are being made with consultation with the residents of this city about HOW THEIR MONEY is being spent.

Kingston is looked upon as the laughing stock (in the industry) when it comes to convention facilities and OHL hockey arenas and that truly is a very sad state of this city. I came originally from the GTA and I know how much better it was there for people in your situation and state of life. That is why my own children live in Toronto and Montreal. I would never recommend living in Kingston until you are in the retirement ages.

Just remember that you believe that your grand parents did worked hard - so do (you) - but both on the environmental impact and throw away society.

Just remember that is actually why I can agree with you on many issues you raised.We did the best we could with the information we got. Unfortunately we were laid too and now we are stuck with we got now and you got now. That is exactly the reason why I am trying to fight as much as I can to make things better.

You are mistaken when you believe that I am against the LVEC. It will help - local small downtown retailers (Shoppers Drug Mart just expanded because of downtown initiative such as the LVEC) Just as long as you realize for me Down Town does not MEAN ONLY THE LOCATION OF THE NORTH BLOCK OR ANGLIN BAY. I grew up in a Becker Store type FAMILY business. It is stupid to think that driving to a box store helps the local economy! The money goes to head office @ Home Depot in the US? This does not help us one bit and that is exactly why I BUY CANADIAN. I SUPPORT BUYING FROM OUT LOCAL FARMERS; I SUPPORT BUYING BEEF FROM THE CANADIAN FARMER. Unfortunately, try getting in from the corporations you just mentioned.

I am in support of having The LVEC is "a beckon" for "local progress and downtown development" - for wind power and environmental building methods etc. And of course contributing significantly to the cultural, economic and good environmental impact of our community. Those are exactly the reasons I support this happening. I am against it being on Anglin Bay and I would have preferred the entire “”DOWNTOWN CORE” having had the opportunity to decided on the LOCATION they wanted and not just a few people.

I agree fully with you that us older people could learn from your generation because you do have the education that “”WE SPENT YOU TO UNIVERSITIES ““ go get. Your generation is more educated but believe me that It is because we had not fought for this. Your generation would be the way your children’s generation is getting when they are dropping out of school in droves. So it is very nice to see that you are fighting for your children’s generation. Good for you.

The only people who care about individualism" are the people who try to railroad construction of development with input from the public. Again if businesses are so for this LVEC let them put their money where their mouths are. Taxes are the only thing that helps you get the better society, health care, CPP, etc that you mentioned. It should not be just to satisfy a few people who are independently wealthy and want to take more from Your society and mine. As for my car going down town, I would think that you would want me to spend my money at your stores than the big box stores. Can’t do that when people don’t want us there. Of course, if your downtown provided better bus systems maybe more people in the townships would go there. Provide us with free parking so that we would shop more in your stores. That unfortunately is the only reason people go to the big box stores. THEY PROVIDE FREE PARKING. When the city does not provide this then you are FORCE use into the big box stores.

I agree with you about the previous councils that are ultimately to blame for higher taxes these past 7 years. (Not the LVEC) They did not raise enough taxes in their time - and did not invest in local infrastructure projects that have come to rest now on our generation. They also choose to spend unwisely but not ensuring that KEDCO produced the results that they paid for. They also made it extremely difficult for start-up business to develop here.

You are totally correct when you say The LVEC will help pay for these issues (over the next 30 years) - not add to them. ANY business takes at least 5-7 years to make a profit. This is basic math! I fully understand because I was a General Accountant. Who dealt with Companies such as Ontario Hydro, Trow Engineering.

Reading the LVEC business plan (remember its only a forecast!) and learn about the facility experts and its multipurpose characteristics and its benefits to the "local" downtown is a great suggestion for someone who has not done so.

Because I think that the LVEC and the Multiplex should be placed on a 50 acre lot of land instead of the downtown core, I can not fully agree with you that having it down town would not help business down town. Sorry, I would prefer to have tax dollars used more usefully in providing infrastructures.

BEFORE you judge the old timers like myself. I think you should realize that we are close than we are apart on many issues. Don’t blame us because we are older.

Let us agree to disagree on location only and the process used to achieve things. Let us agree however on working together to create what we do agree on. Unfortunately the LVEC on the water just isn’t one.

Dispite that fact that you are unset with people like me, I am very very happy you are expressing your views. This is called discussion and this is what every citizen should be allowed to do regarding every project, ideas, policies, etc.

All said and done, we all live in THE CITY OF KINGSTON, WHICH HAS 12 DISTRICTS. Maybe, just maybe, the Kingston Taxpayer's Association can create this kind of environment for people to hass out things BEFORE Council makes plots and plans for the entire city.

[Exhibitionist]

Old habits are hard to die

I appreciate your thoughts and consideration with regards to the idea that what we can do "together" to make this world (this city) a better place for all begins at home.

I believe individuals (alone) tend to be less productive and self serving rather than a team approach.

I am not looking at a million dollars for self fulfillment/esteem or to keep up with the "Smiths". I think that idea is rather 19 century idealism.

I just would prefer a better system in place for governence and distribution of wealth, rather than the current capitalist system, so all can benefit (and see the benefits) - not just the few.

I suspected you came from a generation that benefitted the most, in terms of support in areas such as social services, upper mobility big city opportunities and a unthreated community environment.

I respectively disagree with the fact; that capitalism is (Better than Socailism)

If you read the UN's current report on social and economic policy/benefits (based on sovern countries ability to best benefit their populations) The reports: scales show the USA scores -2 , Canada scores +2, Sweden, Finland score + 8, and the highest was Cuba that score + 14.

In simplistic terms:

What "wealth" is generated by Cuba - goes directly 95% - towards health, education, infastructure and the emergency services.

i.e When New Orleans was hit and flooded - the USA is still both working to "get back on feet"..in the region and the infastructure which was totally destroyed - may never be recovered to normal.

Cuba which was also hit by the same storm - recovered within weeks because they "invested" properly in infastructures and services to support (the well being of its citizens). In such general emergencies cases...and in many other social services policies which we Canada are moving away from.

Back to the LVEC -

The waterfront would have been fine for the LVEC.

Infact; better than the North Block. Beyond the vista, the Wellington Street overpass, and needed developed property (in the North end) to the toxic ground issues (at the North Block) - the site at Anglan Bay is the better location. (Other than maybe the Memorial Centre)

The North Block is to small in fact the areana is now 30% smaller (but costs the same!) - and the parking cannot be underground at the site for large event trucks, cars and storage needs.

Anglan Bay - they were correct.

It is the best location. Infact; in the past Thursday Whig - they were talking about Block "D"...and development regarding waterfront locations/vacant land etc.

The fact developers will not work at these sites (because of the brownfield) from old plants that were there at the turn of the century.

The waterfront area - they have identified 560 brownfield areas that will need millions to revamp for any type of development. These sites are not full of throw away sewing machines.. - these are PCB, Toxins and disguarded oil tanks and gasoline spills over the past 100 years.

I agree with Trudeau that Cuba - is a better political and economic structure for the distribution of wealth, and the well being of most of its citizens. (it is not perfect) - but definitely better to its counterpart - US /Canadian capitalism.

Seniors: are certainly a burden to the community - because they do not support the services / in ratio to the usage and capacity the hospitals require to handle their demographic needs.

i.e No new hospitals have been etablished in this area - in fact we almost saw one shut down - since the influx of seniors for Toronto, Ottawa and other parts of the country began to arrive in the mid 1990's.

And I must disagree - they will need to be coming downtown - for hospitals, community services, treatments and doctor visits soon for care and more often as they age. (For older folks to live away from downtown is not a good thing) i.e ambulance. fire and police services are more stretched.

I infact chose to live downtown because I want to get rid of my car. I have always had "older cars" which are inefficient and contribute more to global waming infact than most newer cars. I cannot afford new.

You also (and most others in the township) have frankly been the ones supporting the "box stores" and urban sprawl. The meger livelyhoods of the retail employees - marginalising them are a direct result of your personal choices. Not shopping or purchasing goods/service that are of higher quality or locally made (they may cost more) but are easily also affordable by folks like you is somewhat hypacritical.

Generally; I believe "older folks" do not care or personally NEED the LVEC.

I sense they are concerned about their taxes going up again - so they cannot afford to live in the homes. I understand this and (respect) their concerns.

But, again the LVEC is not even built yet - and taxes have gone up almost 30% in the past 6 years.

It is again - the lack of will and experience from councils (past) to run this city like it needs to be with some business, public policy strategies (such as the transportation master plan) - that will be inclusive to the people in the townships - giving them (mostly students and low income persons) in this example: the opportunity to use local transportation services *****ly.

The days of piece meal planning is now over. And I see Ms. Hickey at the City doing a great job - focusing on the needs (and will) of the area to bring policies and "plans" into place for the benefit and efficiencies of the townships, City Centres and the regions prosperity.

I agree with you regarding KEDCO - I think they have been ineffective and
unprofessional business "leaders/developers" in our community.

Even with Mr. Robinsons guidance - they have missed the boat with regards to attracting good businesses to Kingston in the 90's.

Starteck maybe a company you may consider as progress - but they are not a company that pays only living wages and they could up and leave within a month - if they felt threatened in any way.

We have lost over 4000 well paying jobs: Bombardier, Norcom, Ministry of Transportation, Queens is downsizing and contracting, Alcan use to have 1800 people now its has 350. And these are reasonable paying positions - now replaced with low wage - low skill positions.

Kedco - is better off - outsourced to a Toronto type professional firm.


I also agree - we are better as one - 12 districts in this age - is divisive and inefficient.

(eg. - commitee meeting as an example: - the most number of people in a committee should not be over 7. Any more you will not get anthing done.

It is always better to have (especially in smaller Cities) a focused council with the expertise and right number to get things done.

I believe Mayor Rosen (although lacking in communication) on the 7 big projects underway - understands this well.

I also think - it is not so much Mr. Rosens fault with regards to the lack of communication, "selling" and general public perception of the LVEC and other projects to the general public.

I believe they (the City) did not build in a basic "communication" officier budget - that could have launched the LVEC "Titanic" , for feilding questions, set up public forums to built trust with the general public, both (verbally) and in print - to qualifiy the site location and why it was choosen - and the steps the City is willing to take - to be inclusive and less "perceived" secret..regarding the public - over their initial concerns.

I think - this was the City's main oversite. (especially with the existing small town mentallity) - that historically gets thing done by who one knows, and what property one owns) espesially with the general publics lack of experience with LVEC's.

So, to close I think the latter statements are meant to be "progessive" and "observant" - for the benefits of future generations..
.
- not just my own.

[Lydia]

God bless you *************, I am learning a lot from you and I appreciate your sharing thoughts with anyone who wishes to add their views on here. I find that as we communiciate we are showing the people that WE are actually more closer than we thing on many things. Yes we have our differences , however, we are not in that “”Im RIGHT/your WRONG” mode. I firmly believe in my gut that we need to see both sides of things because IN THE MIDDLE is the real answer to any issue or project.

Thank God you don’t believe in the “”ME ONLY” mentality ( meaning I don’t care about anything that doesn’t affect me personally and the hell with the rest of the word.”” You and I both believe in team approach. We are both not impressed nor do we are to be so financialy stable that we forget about living life within our means. After all my saying is this “ I don’t want to be the richest man/woman in the graveyard” That is the only reason that I and my husband retired at 53. I also believe that if you have not made your first million by the time you are 50, what makes you think you should by the time you are 100?lol By retiring when we did we gave up careers so that younger generation could get what people NEED (home to live in, food, stress free life without worrying about the future) We don’t hold down 2 or 3 jobs that take away from younger generation that have much more financial stress that my hubby and I do, but that is me.

Actually, my parents came from the Ukrain and they were also schedules for execution because they would not fight for the Communist Sysem in World War 1 and 2, Infact, even now there are problems with the USSR and Ukrain today. It is for that reason I am not in favour of So******t docturine.

I did benefit from Social Services, however, because I saw how it actually entraps people to become takers and not givers to society. However, we have to remember that THERE ARE PEOPLE THOUGHT NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN that TRULY NEED SOCIAL ASSISTANCE. Those people are being helped because we are a “”caring society””.

It is interesting to know what you said below:

If you read the UN's current report on social and economic policy/benefits (based on sovern countries ability to best benefit their populations) The reports: scales show the USA scores -2 , Canada scores +2, Sweden, Finland score + 8, and the highest was Cuba that score + 14.In simplistic terms:What "wealth" is generated by Cuba - goes directly 95% - towards health, education, infastructure and the emergency services.

However, my godmother who is still alive loves Cuba and goest there on vacation. She understand that it is a beautiful place. Her husband who was the Chief of Police in Montreal during the 50s, however had a clearer view. He also says that these people are under ARMED GUARD every moment of their lives. He also states that these people are told what they may or may not own. Somehow this does not appeal to me.

Another example of problem areams is Bogota in South America. How would you like living under armed guard 24 hours a day? I have a relative who does. 24 hours and isn't a prisioner either. He is working as a VP in the Oil industry.

I also know that people from the USSR who have family over their still would NEVER EVER SEND MONEY on packages which have and will be inspected by the government over there. We are not talk about hiding drugs or arms here, we are saying people who send cloths, presents, etc have their stuff looked over. Again I am not in favour of that.It is the good and the bad of that system, I guess. However, to be fair I have never nor will I ever visit these places because frankly they terrify me. Especially the USSR and what they said they would do with people like me who were born in Canada but have ties there.

You are 100% correct rather than thinking that New Orleans or any other disaster strucken location, (even in Canada) will ever get back to what it was, will never happen. The only thing that you can hope for is that governments learn from how communities are build and where they should be build.

I wonder why Cuba could receover within weeks? Maybe we should really take a look at their infrastructures and services. What are they and how are they paying for this. Who are the people who actually benefit? ARE ALL citizens rich and poor treated the same?

Are you sure you are not on the KCAL’s side of this issue?? Lol lol The reasons people are not in favour of the North Block are actually the ones they mention as well. Lol lol.Although I would have prefered to have the LVEC up on Division Street and 401, Montreal and the 401, etc, I can accept the North Block for only one reason. The reason being is that the Downtown people would have it where they want it, in the area they call downtown.

The North Block is to small in fact the areana is now 30% smaller (but costs the same!) - and the parking cannot be underground at the site for large event trucks, cars and storage needs.

Identified 560 brownfield areas that will need millions to revamp for any type of development. These sites are not full of throw away sewing machines.. - these are PCB, Toxins and disguarded oil tanks and gasoline spills over the past 100 years.

You keep saying that “Seniors: are certainly a burden to the community - because they do not support the services / in ratio to the usage and capacity the hospitals require to handle their demographic needs.

However, are you also unaware that it is that group and are paying for School Taxes because this group owns their homes? They certain are PROVIDE for a lot of things because they are also the CONSUMER who actually spend THEIR money on OUR economy??? Would you prefer that these people STOP paying taxes on schools and instead put their money on their health care?? Also SENIORS who are older have a tendency to use the BUS SYSTEMS more often than people in your and my generation. Yes they do use the medical system more but what are their choices??? Lol lol. Oh yes by now the Seniors also don’t buy as much because they have their belongins and are starting to downsize. They don’t go out and buy Dvd, CDs, Large TVS, etc. These people are afraid of using the new things which intimitate them.

I believe (correct me if im incorrect) You would prefer a user-pay system. I personally don’t see any difference between that system and taxes. When it comes down to it both take money away from my budget. However, that is just me.

It is sad that No new hospitals have been etablished in this area - in fact we almost saw one shut down - since the influx of seniors for Toronto, Ottawa and other parts of the country began to arrive in the mid 1990's. However, thank god these people stood up on the streets as a protest and demanded that the Hotel Dieu would not be closed ( I did).

Remember people who come from Toronto and Ottawa do so because they sold their homes to people Your generation so that they would be closer to where the corporations are hiring people. That sucks but it is a fact. Since these seniors don’t need to be close to work they moved out this way to free up the space for younger generations. Example, My Son lives in Toronto, My daughter lives in Montreal.

As a senior, I only come downtown for hospital services and to volunteer to help in community services ( don’t work for financial gain) However, there are clinics out the previous townships, There are fire departments out here, Police services out here, and even Shopping malls that are closed in and free from ice and snow build up on sidewalks that are on the streets where the shops down town are. However, since I come from a place and grew up in a Family Business, I prefer shopping downtown. Unfortunately, because of parking I do not do it often. If parking was free like they are in the townships I would shop only downtown.


I am glad you chose to live downton and get rid of your car. Exactly what I told my two children and my son lives in downtown Toronto and does not own a car either. My daughter a little different, she has a car but works from home. Both are professional computer programmers.

I understand that you are upset with people like me in the township. Maybe if the merchants and downtown business corporation and networking groups would be willing to offer SERVICE along with merchandize then maybe US TOWNSHIP people would be willing to help YOU. However, if you keep attaching the CONSUMER (us) then give me a reason to SUPPORT (YOU)??? Example, provide parking while WE go to your stores.

As an older person, I DO NEED THE LVEC. I need it because I am hoping that Mayor Rosen will bring in businesses that would have conferences here, I need it because Kingston does need Conferences centers similar to the Toronto International Centre, I need it because we would offer high entertainment than we have now. Can I guarantee that this willhappen, personally, NO, however, I am willing to try.I have worked with people holding Conferences, my family were entertainers. The LVEC if done correctly and openly will be a jewel we can be proud off.

Try working for Census Canada the next time they do one in Kingston. Only then will you truly understand how sad and true that the statement below is.

I sense they are concerned about their taxes going up again - so they cannot afford to live in the homes. I understand this and (respect) their concerns.

The Kingston Taxpayer’s Association has been created for the reason you have just given. But, again the LVEC is not even built yet - and taxes have gone up almost 30% in the past 6 years. They too are upset that the lack of will and experience from councils (past) to run this city like it needs to be with some business, public policy strategies (such as the transportation master plan) - that will be inclusive to the people in the townships - giving them (mostly students and low income persons) in this example: the opportunity to use local transportation services *****ly.


I am glad to learn about Ms. Hickey at the City doing a great job - focusing on the needs (and will) of the area to bring policies and "plans" into place for the benefit and efficiencies of the townships, City Centres and the regions prosperity. This is truly why I have joined the Kingston Taxpayer’s Association. I have also tried to ensure that people got active in committees and watch dogs over them so that people can learn exactly what committees work and which ones need revamping.

I don’t understand why a group of business people would not set up support groups like the Connectus Association here in Kingston. Check out the following Website: http://www.connectuscanada.com . I had been very active with this group in Toronto in the past. This group has done more to promote professional businesses, regional, national and interenational start ups.

Trust me, that fact that KEDCO thinks Starteck is progressive angers me. People working there are doing so because of necessity. This is not what I call CAREER building opportunities. I say that because relatives of mine actually work at these kinds of jobs.Well paying jobs: Bombardier, Norcom, Ministry of Transportation, are what I would wish for everyone in this country.

The only to obtain a well paying job is to understand these two things. 1: Are you worth what you are asking for in a wage? (If so know why you are worth it and then understand that if you don’t think so why should anyone else?
2: You are not to identify yourself with any company, corporation or employeer. You should always understand that you are NOT WORKING FOR THEM. You are PROVIDING A SKILL, TALENT, OR SERVICE to another company, corporation, business.

In My mother and father’s lives, they created their own businesses and were proud of them. Some of those business are known as Irving Oil, McCains Brothers, etc. We need more Mom and Pop businesses. We need more Trade skilled people. We need more service businesses. We need a place where we can learn about who are the best in their businesses and services. Who is the best Roofer in this city, Best Plumber, Best Electrician, Best Snow removing company? Where do we get that information????

People will tell me that businesses, can hire a thousand people with my skills. They are totally correct. HOWEVER, THEY CAN’T HIRE ME and I know I am the Best at what I do. There are a thousand out there that don’t give a dang about providing SERVICE. They just do the bare amount of work to get things done they don’t provide SERVICE or quality.

This is now a CITY OF KINGSTON, I will be proud of it for my reasons. Dispite being told that I am an outsider, I don’t care because. I have something to offer this city and I will. I am not a person who has a “Us versus Them” mentality. (Downtowners versus Townshipers”. That is divisive and inefficient. Let you and I start to looks as this entire CITY IS OURS and we work towards making it the best place to come. Otherwise, we both loose. Let us tell our politicians exactly what our needs are. What do we need and want from them. Let us stop blaming our politicians because they don’t do what we want when we have not told them. However, if these politicians are not willing to listen to us it is time to get people who will tell us openly, clearly, the both sides of issues. You and I have done this here. If you and I can do this why can’t this city do it???

I fully agree a committee should not be over 7 (okay 12 ( 12 councilors an example) lol lol. However topics that affect us should be open to the public so that if someone is concerned about something they have the opportunity to shed light on both sides of an issue. The 12 should make the decisions but they should be informred decisions. After that we should get on with the task. Lets do brain storming with the public. And have the 7 make the final decision.

Kingston is actually growing to adopt a more focused approach. Now they need to do it the right way. Despite what you may think I like Mayor Rosen. Yep he has brought this entire city to stand up and become active. I think our CAO, Glen Laubenstein is a total delight and is the best example of open communication there is. He follows up on issues. We are extremely lucky to have him.

I hate to agree with you that it is not so much Mr. Rosens fault with regards to the lack of communication, "selling" and general public perception of the LVEC and other projects to the general public. When there was public diagreement, there should have been a Poll taken. A poll that was not on line but one that people had to get out and sign. (Hard Copy). This could have been done with the Whig’s help.

I agree the budget has upset people. When a project is being costed, tell the complete truth about the entire process, (no hidden costs). I actually like the way Mark Flutcher is handling things with the Multiplex. I liked the way Barry Kaplan talked about issues that he dealt with on the Accessibility issues. Yes I didn’t like the negative sides of things however I got to know about them. There are more positives then negatives and so the projects should continue to be created.

We are in the middle of an Federal election. We have side every party display dirty issues. Can you blame the citizens for NOT TRUSTING or not willing to spend tax money?We need the LVEC, Multiplex, and the other 5 projects. All the people are asking for open, honest, discussion and input.

When you said this: “” So, to close I think the latter statements are meant to be "progessive" and "observant" - for the benefits of future generations..- not just my own.’’ I say add this: ‘ LET US BE FUTURISTIC “

We have the best educated people in the world. Time for us to ‘CREATE A BETTER FUTURE FOR ALL”One more thing.


How come we are the LONG WINDED ONES ON HERE ANYWAY? LOL LOL LOL. Hope you realize I have never written a letter in my life that is this long even in 36 years lol lol (not even to my family)

[Exhibitionist]

Lydia - I frankly don't know what more I could say - to you...

We are getting way off topic...

But finally regarding your interpretations on volunteering, Cuba and the township services for seniors/population.......etc.

I have volunteered and been associated with mentoring youth, helping and sponsoring marginalized social welfare clients as a social/worker for several years. Along with supporting these groups financially through my personal income and private business..for a long time.

And to convince you that your volunteering at your milestone may seem "enriching" to one with such a privledge life - seems to me almost 1/2 shelf serving. But, I am somewhat pleased if gratifying to you - and also one with such time at hand. (Thank you.)

I have also travelled to many places in the western world - I was married in Germany, travelled all over Europe and the US for personal and business. (so I likely know more than most what Eastern / Western European situations/cultures are all about)

And they are "mutually exclusive" of Cuba's situation. It is abslutely untrue not true that they are held at gun point - that is ridiculous. And frankly leds to this last point...

I can say with some experience: North Americans are isolated from the world - geographically, current affairs, information wise i.e media, travel experience wise, and live with a notion that Canada is the best place "in the world".

This is nonsense....its frankly embarrassing to discuss anything with persons like yourself or others that have no true "hands on" experience with other places/people.

(Most here travel to Florida, or Disney world, Mexico, and live in suburbs. The few that do venture beyond... also tend to stay in American type Hotels and eat American.)

Many of my friends, family & fellow Canadians in general believe we are all "the same" in this world. Most I say - mostly waspish middle/upper middle class Canadian citizens like yourself frankly - are generally the nieve ones. It's really sad.

(Thus the previous rambling.. regarding "older folks" - being the foundation of their own and now our generations - (general ignorance regarding enviroment, marginalized people etc.) Consumerism is again our legacy. (but, now its made in China - where people have no say) And no enviromental laws or social justice. Great legacy ehhhhh?

I hate to bring us back to topic again - but as you said you have rather gone beyond
your usual 200 word - limit per day. lol :)

Urban Sprawl:

Yes - infact "BECAUSE" folks like yourself - live and contribute to urban sprawl - services we (all expect) - such as ambulance, health clinics and fire service are forced to "decentalize" costing most of our tax hikes - Because you need to have (services) that must be able to comply to the ministry guidelines i.e- 8 minutes for ambulance etc....

Along with the main expenses of building sewers, roads, hydro and there long term maintenance that come when your "rural subdivisions" are not already served by the latter services. (understand?) That is why our taxes are going up. (I subsidize your life style.) And I have a problem with that. Taxes are not going up because The City is waisting it on City salaries or LVEC's.

I personally have no problem with school taxes or general income tax. These taxes support "everyone" - and especially the next generation - such as YOUR current children and future grandchildren. That they have a safe, clean and effective educational institution/education, hospitals, OHIP and all the things you take for granted - and blame the City that its there fault.

The fault is our own. As I said from the beginning of our "debate" on (postwar generation) lifestyle..Your lifestyle (pasted down) is unsustainable. It creates higher taxes, and we are now paying double - because we have all your toxic waste experiments, no ozone layer, green house gases and third world economic problems to fix.

LVEC:

LVEC Articles (lots in the Whig) - ...speaking to Rick Downes wish for a referrendum! $$$

Today (Saturday) the KCAL.ca has posted lots more misinformation with no detailed backup or proof - regarding the Guelph facility. (Just the same old half truths...= lie)

I may have to write them for proof again. But, they never send me any.

..but on a lighter note...

Things are looking up in KIngston for us again - I have been offered a professional position with a large corporation in Kingston. (I was downsized when engineering/planning @ Bombardier was shut down a year or so ago...)

So, on a personal note things are looking new for regular work. (Although I may have to arrange someone to help with my business though.) Do you have any sales experience??? lol. :)

Take care Lydia - It has been a pleasure. Good Health and keep up the volunteering!!!

P.S And do me a favor - next Christmas (as a family) donate to a favorite local charity - instead of buying unnecessary presents you obviously don't really need.